when they're being hypersurveiled, when they're being scrutinized and punished for things that their peers are not, that sends a strong message about who's valued and who's not valued in the school context. when you layer on top of that that there was a perception that students who wore clothes that were societied with african-american culture -- associated with african-american culture were more likely to be scrutinized than people, than students who didn't wear those kind of clothing, if they wore, for example a button-up shirt and a pair of khakis, they were often assumed to be good kids, and if they wore clothes associated with african-american be culture, with hip-hop culture, they felt like they were often more scrutinized. and, again, this was something that was echoed among many people in the school context. so when you have to deny a part of yourself to navigate your school context, that naturally may lead you to feel like you're not necessarily part of the environment. >> host: thus, your test scores are lower? your academic achievement is lowersome. >> guest: i think what

so there's this process of hypersurveillance. and the likelihood of being in violation of the pass code is much higher if you're stopped than if you're not. it's almost like racial profiling in policing, right? so that was one of the examples of how this sort of played itself out. and the white students were trying to make sense of it, and they were saying it's not fair, it's something that happens all the time. the administrators were trying to make sense of it. one talked about having black and white students in their office, and whenever they asked white students if they needed a pass, the white students would say, oh, no be, i never get stopped. so not only were black students talking about this, white students, white administrators and others in the community were talking about how discipline was not meted out fairly or equally among students. and we had similar patterns that we saw in classrooms with regard to how students were disciplined, how they were referred to discipline and thousand they were expected to -- >> host:

expression, they are trying to figure out how you have social movements in which black students are hypersurveilledthese campuses and are hypervisible. and also where media coverage of these stories is usually quite hostile to these students. it is not usually sympathetic. especially when we're having ridiculous conversations. so, for instance, about freedom of speech, when thesis students are really asking us about what it means to be physically and emotionally uh unsafe on these campuses. that's the issue. this is not an issue of black students who are advocating for the right to be in safe places, trying to limit other folks' constitutional rights, and it's extremely dishonest to assume or act that is the conversation we're trying to have. >> greg, your response to that? >> well, it's one of those things, i think it's funny. there was an article that rab today called "the free speech diversion," and it ran maybe yesterday in "the new yorker." and to me, i've been fighting for campus free speech for my entire career, going back to 2001. and we've been defeating the kind of things that would have