and, of course, pastor buster soaries you met before. glenn lowry has been, we've asked him to talk very briefly and i should add quickly said some of you old his ph.d status, are used to going on at great length but i think we have an hour for all of us. so we just when every free flowing conversation right after professor lowry talks a bit about these programs in the context of a fellow named james c. scott who wrote this book, seeing like a state, which i think would be a very valuable book for anyone interested in these questions to read. so professor lowry. >> it's really a pleasure to be here. that earlier panel today was quite inspiring to me, and the celebrity and political leaders individuals also quite inspiring, make me think something along these lines. i want to first make a point of personal privilege and observation. yes, i do the ph.d. am also the alumnus of a halfway house where i recover from a cocaine addiction 27 years ago and it changed my life. amanda ran that house was a christian dedicated community worker. we've

. >> pastor soaries, his church in new jersey is a prime example of how an effective grassroots group can take government money and do good things with it, make a government look really good in the course of that spin and pay it back by the way. >> right, sure. but you know, i think one thing that's clear for all of us is that there isn't that kind of hard-core libertarian objection to government programs as such your folks have done good things, right, with government funding and that's been a useful -- on the philanthropy question if i could just make a quick observation about that. what always surprises me is we have here some of the most effective grassroots leaders in the country, and i bet you could count on the fingers of one hand the numbers of foundations that have been involved with them, right? as you pointed out, mr. siegel, -- >> don't put it that way last night. >> but the are many, many foundations. to our hundreds come well, a lot of foundations in the country. many of modest means, many of which could simply locate a grassroots group. they could go to pastor shirley a