the publisher at the time a man named steven ruben had tavis under contract for an autobiography and i had written a book for steve, a big mogul business. he was president of colombia records during michael jackson days. in any event, ruben thought that tavis and i would be a good part and last year he and i did a book together and martin luther king, jr. t last year of his life and recently we worked together on the book of myia myiaaangelou. he appreciates what what i do and shows me great respect and also i love how he speaks and i love his voice and he's a good story teller, so it's been a great combination >> is the ghost writing business a big business that we don't know about? >> guest: the one area that we haven't talked about is deep ghost, which means you don't have your name on it. you touched upon it earlier. a deep ghost is a person who has ghost-written a book, typically politicians use a deep ghost, i don't know whether a majority of books written by politicians, but a large number of books by politicians are ghost written. so yeah, it's -- i tell you one interesting s