mister mr. meiburg can answer this, what triggers counseling? how do i determine whether somebody should have counseling and then be a part of say keeping them warned and i know you don't have a lot to do with the final say but, mr. meiburg? >> thank you randy members. the short answer is it depends on the case and the nature of the offense. if it's an offense created out of ignorance or simply employee did not know what rule was then counsel may be appropriate but each one of those cases have to be evaluated on its own merits based on the facts of the case and the applicable regulations. >> mister sullivan, time is running out but miss colin had asked you all about where we go from here. tell me clearly, what would you like to see done so that we can be effective and efficient and so we can basically put you out of a job? >> mister cummings, i'm not trying to get rid of you but you understand what i'm saying. >> i appreciate that. i'm concerned that when we have an investigation and because i don't hav

meiburg and mister sullivan?yes congressman it is and that's very important that we make sure the system is not now subject to ... >> to take hard-working people and then cast them out on some political basis and i think that should be protected. however, the reports we have here, i have 12 pages of some of the most egregious abuses. i can't find any instance in which anyone wasfired . did you say there were 15,000 epa employees? is that correct? >> more than that. >> yes that's correct. >> you say mister sullivan you had 280 investigators. >> no sir, we have 360 five years ago, now we are down to 289 289 staff, and what do they do? x we have investigations. >> so the investigate ... within the ..., i'm sorry they are investigating, looking at revealing the conduct of the 15,000 epa employees? >> ihave 50 agents now that have investigations . >> last year, 2015 how many people were fired from the epa? >> i'd have to defer to mr. meiburg. >> mr. meiburg, how many were fired? >> i don't know ... >> were any ever fi