you have no letters from sally hemming. where do you start? annette: we have letters from her brothers. we have the memory of her son. you -- when you are piecing together the life of someone who did not write anything, you have to work around it. you have to be transparent with the audience. as long as you are clear with your readers about what you have and what you do not have, people, along with you but you cannot make stuff up. it is much harder. it was easier to write about the hemmings of monticello then about sally hemming. you could actually create a portrait of the family but not regarding the individual. jon: and the power of annette's work with such a possibly ups -- paucity of sources she still achieved so much. annette: you try to evoke the time frame as much as you camp there are some things that we know about her but no letters which are the lifeblood of history. if you remember, the call that letters are not always correct. if you think you have this voluminous amount of information about jefferson, he is still mysterious. ther

you have no letters from sally hemmings. >> no. >> where do you start there in that place? >> well, you start -- you have to write around it. >> you have to be tans parerans with the audience. as long as you are clear about what you have and what you don't have. people come along with you in that way, but you can't make stuff up. it's much harder, and that's why it was easier to do the hemmings of monticello rather than sally hemmings it because there are enough family members, enough things that you could pull together that was known about them that you could actually create a portrait of the family, but not any individual could with stand an entire biography. >> the power of annette's work is that with such a pausety of sources, you feel you are right there. it's an amazing achievement. >> thank you, but it's really around it. you write around it. the era, the time period and try to evoke as much of it as you can, and you use the little bits you have. there are some things we know about her, but no letters, and that is sort of the lifeblood of history. if you remember, re

turns against him after jefferson wins and is the first to disclose jefferson had an affair with sally hemmingss slave. they are the first sex scandals in america. charlie: was hamilton someone that people like? john: he was very good. [speaking simultaneously] you seem to be someone who was so ambitious that some people said i am not -- john: that is right. in the musical, there are a few of those throwaway lines. you know, who is this guy speaking for six hours? he won't shut up. there is that line where burr says, talks about the federal register papers and says hamilton worked 51 -- i can remember, but he is irritated by the constant and also in vs. the fullthat line hamilton, he trading, show up, constantly going, always in your face, which is what made him so impressive. charlie: always observing his ambitions because he was chief of staff at the center of the action to george washington. he knew he needed at all filled experience for the political career that he wanted. john: right, the glory that he wanted. part of itt's assume also was the patriot he believed that the best way to serve

turns against him after jefferson wins and is the first to disclose jefferson had an affair with sally hemmingsslave. so this guy is responsible for the first two sex scandals in america. charlie: was hamilton someone that people like? john: no -- i don't -- charlie: or was he simply very good at what he did? [speaking simultaneously] charlie: he seemed to be someone who was so ambitious that some people said enough. john: that is exactly right. in the musical, there are a few of those throwaway lines. you know, who is this guy speaking for six hours? he just won't shut up. the amazing thing is the drive. there is that line where burr says, talks about the federalist papers and says hamilton wrote 51 -- i cannot member how many of them he read, but he is irritated by the constant and also envious. it is in that line the full hamilton, you were dating, show up -- your rotating, -- irit ating, show up, constantly going, always in your face, which is what made him so impressive. charlie: always observing his ambitions because he was chief of staff at the center of the action to george washington.

evidence, but --il annette gordon reed harvard professor, started writing her terrific books about sally hemmingsmost journalists that.storians poo-pooed was compelling circumstantial evidence about jefferson. i make the argument that the tyler case meets the same -- there's a lot of circumstantial -- one one day begin out day be dna evidence. brian: his life was extraordinary. 15 children. how did that divide up between lies? -- wives. and those were legitimate. i make a joke that that was the most for tile election in history -- fetile election in history. there are allegations that he was from -- he may have had four black children. 10 from harrison and 15 from child or -- from tyler from two marriages. eight from his first wife, 7 from his second wife. en he marries a beautiful woman 30 years younger with an hourglass figure in 1844, julia tyler. then he has seven more children with her. the allegations about the black children go back 30 years. brian: how much of these former bysidents having children black slaves, in most cases, is new information? the jefferson is well-known but the other

you have no letters from sally hemmings. >> no. >> where do you start there? >> you start -- you have to write around it. we have letters from her brothers. we have the memory of her son. we have statements from other people so you have to -- figures -- when piecing together the life of somebody who didn't write anything, you have to go around it. what other people said about it and have to be transparent with the audience. as long as you can clear with the audience, the readers, about what you have and don't have. people come along with you in that way, but you can't make stuff up. it's much harder. that's why it was easier to do the hemmings of monticello, rather than sally hemmings. there were enough family members, enough things pulled together you could create a portrait of the family, but not any individual could withstand an entire biography. >> the power of annette's work is with such a paucity of sources, you feel as though you're right there. it's an amazing achievement. >> thank you, but it's really around it. all right around it. the era, the time

until annette gordon reed -- the harvard professor, started writing her terrific books about sally hemmingsmost journalists and historians poo-pooed that. about jefferson having illegitimate children. and i think there was compelling circumstantial evidence about jefferson. so i make the argument that the tyler case meets the same -- there's a lot of circumstantial and that there may one day be dna evidence. it seems like of all of the chapters, his life was extraordinary. 15 children. how did that divide up between wives? -- and those were illegitimate children. mr. kendall: i make a joke that that was the most fetile election in history. because you have 15 children. allegations that he, and i just report, there are allegations that he was from -- he may have had four black children. 10 from harrison and 15 from tyler from two marriages. eight from his first wife, 7 from his second wife. his first wife, but t-shirt, ins in 18 -- letisha, dies 1842. then he marries a beautiful woman 30 years younger with an hourglass figure in 1844, julia tyler. and then he goes on to have seven more child

against him after jefferson wins and is the first one to disclose that jefferson had an affair with sally hemmings his slave. so this guy is responsible for the first two sex scandals in america. >> rose: was hamilton someone people liked or was he good at what he did. >> he was good at what he did. >> rose: he seemed to be someone who was so ambitious and so talented some people said enough. >> that's right and in the musical there were a few lines who is this guy speaking for six hours he just won't shut up. the amazing thing is the drive. there is that line where burr talks about the federalist papers and says hamilton wrote 51, i can't remember how many but he is both error stated by his constant and also envious which is in that line by hamilton this irritating won't shut up constantly going always in your face which is always the drive that made him so impressive. >> rose: always in service of his ambition because he was chief of staff at the center of the action to george washington but he knew that he needed battlefield experience to have the political career that he want. >> right, right.

that's why it was easier to do the hemmings of monticello, rather than sally hemmings. there were enough family members, enough things pulled together you could create a portrait of the family, but not any individual could withstand an entire biography. >> the power of annette's work is with the pulsety of sources, you feel as though you are right there. it's an amazing achievement. >> thank you, but it's really around it. all right around it. the era, the time period. and try to evoke as much of it as you can. you use the little bits you have. there's some things we know about her, but no letters. if you remember or recall that letters are not always right. so if you think that you have this voluminous amount of material about jefferson, but he still to many people mysterious because there is still a job to be done in interpretation, even when you have things on paper, but it is much better to have it than not. >> it's a really problem because i think any biographer would say there's a tyranny of words when you're writing a history. you tend to follow the paper trail.

but until annette gordon reed -- harvard professor, started writing her terrific books about sally hemmingsmost journalists and historians poo-pooed that. there was compelling circumstantial evidence about jefferson. i make the argument that the tyler case meets the same -- there's a lot of circumstantial and may one day be dna evidence. brian: his life was extraordinary. 15 children. how did that divide up between wives? and those were legitimate. mr. kendall: i make a joke that 1840 was the most fertile ticket. there are allegations that he may have had four black children. 10 from harrison and 15 from tyler with two marriages. eight from his first wife, 7 from his second wife. his first wife dies in 1842. then he marries a beautiful woman 30 years younger with an hourglass figure in 1844, julia tyler. then he has seven more children with her. the allegations about the black children go back 30 years. brian: how much of these former presidents having children by black slaves, in most cases, is new information? mr. kendall: the jefferson is well-known but the other presidents, it is not we