both candidates stand and whose policies may be better for small business owners, we have bill dunkleburgthe chief economist at the uaib and rhonda abrams, a "usa today" column is and also has a publishing company. so good to see both of you. >> nice to be here. >> i want to open this up with just a general question of do you think either of these candidates understands what it's like to be a small business owner and the obstacles small business owners face, the challenges they face? i'll start with you, bill. >> well, you know, i'm not sure that they do. i guess they all have been small business it's at some time in the past. you don't start off big, as we know. microsoft was one person, et cetera, et cetera. so they had some experience in being small. now, trump is certainly larger. and he's grown through the small to the large. and he must know something about being small. >> what about you, rhonda? what i find, we have seen this over and over again. and we have talked about this in conversations, which is that policies get enacted, laws, et cetera, that help big business and have unin