but i think it also goes to something that my harvard colleague, joe nye has talked about for many years power. ultimately it is the ability to be an attractive example that makes a big difference in how much influence a nation has. and if we stop being the nation that is pushing science, if we stop being the nation of cultural creation, we are going to be much less attractive to others and that is going to mean seeding influence. that means other will have systems that will be emulated around the world. and i think that will be very, very costly in terms of our influence, and also very costly directly to our economy. charlie: do you think chinese have -- a, want to assume leadership in the world, want to be competitive with the united states in that dimension? >> i think the chinese see a world where 200 years ago they were a dominant civilization on the global stage. and that hasn't been so for the last 200 years. if you just listen to zhi jinping, that is something that is very important to chinese to restore. do they look to march into other countries, conquer them and invade them? i