the same time they are wrangling with these sort of questions, he just got fired from what was then kleiner and kirk in and is literally living on welfare trying to interest people. he basically goes down a list of people that have attended a conference on what we would call biotech today and thursday you think we could make any money from recombinant dna and they keep hanging up until they get to one of the investors of the dna process so that is an interesting story. he was so persistent without any idea of how to build a biotech company and they ended up building a company that in some ways was like a precursor to the virtual corporation at the time when people didn't even think that way and that was largely due to tom perkins. >> thank you for introducing us to the main characters of the story. i would like to look at the larger ecosystem that was happening. you talked about the important role of venture capital. can you talk about how that was the catalyst that it was and how it compares to that ecosystem now? >> this is an interesting question because it is no longer the home to just