. >> thomas schwartz, also at cna. i think mr. miller mentioned early on that putin perceives himself under awhack tack attac west is aiming for regime change. and going after the ole garks was mentioned several times. are these two things reconcile able? are we risking unwanted escalation by threatening the very thing that you said that he feels is fundamentally at risk here? >> in my view, it's important to go after those people who are involved in this -- this type of activity or pursuing this activity either officially or unofficially and who are tied to president putin. and at the same time to show that we have limited aims to state we have limited aims and by the actions we take, not -- not demonstrate that we vun limited or broader aims of regime change or undermining the power structure within the kremlin or the power structure within the country. anything that would dhat would be a very high level of escalation. >> and there's a precedent, you know, so with china where with the indictment of five members of the people's l