. >> what was it like phasing out the hewey, bringing in the black hawk? >> like night and day. speed access capability was phenomenal. we were then beginning to get the first generation of night vision goggles. tactics were ahead of the technology at the time because we had a division commander, man by the name of mull who was a brilliant man, he began to device along with other brigade commanders their own -- didn't have enough to put together an air assault manual, and the army had forgotten about air mobility and so on because they purged it from itself in the transition. here we are, air assault division trying to read back to what happened in vietnam, you can glean some of the lessons learned, so on and so forth, rebuild an air assault concept. so we had the capability now to do that with the black hawk, with the night vision goggles, with the apache, but they're all in infancy, first generation. it was a phenomenal time as brigade operations officer to see it all coming together. >> how long did you remain operations officer? >> for better part, until i left in 1982. late