mimi rocca, were you trying to weigh in at the end. what's your take? >> thanks, kasie. i just think, first of all, it's remarkable mr. dershowitz's initial argument now, how far we've come. originally trump's defense was there was no meeting. then it was there was a meeting but they only talked about adoptions. then it was trump didn't know about the meeting. now it appears we've gotten to the point he knew about but no crime was committed. i think that that in and of itself, the sort of path of this defense by trump's team is telling, but i also think we can't look at this meeting in isolation. it is very significant, if true, that he knew about the meeting. that doesn't mean that a crime begins and ends there. you have to look at everything that came before it and everything that came after it. remember, after that meeting is when trump gave that speech, calling on the russians to get more of hillary clinton's e-mails, and they actually did, we know, go in then and start fishing into her campaign directly. >> basically the day of, day after. >> yes. >> let me answer t

schmidt who broke this story along with his colleague maggie haberman is at the table along with mimi rocca, former assistant attorney in southern drilkt of new york where everything is happening. jonathan lemire and former u.s. attorney joyce vance. lucky for us all are nbc analysts and contributors. take us through your reporting. >> basically mueller is looking at a lot of different things the president has done. and while most people think obstruction of justice is something that happens in private -- >> that's rudy's comment. >> correct. or people make threats against witnesses in a dark alley. the president's conduct here is public. his public statements about comey and sessions, and what was the president doing behind the scenes when that was going on. one of the examples we use is how trump asked comey to put out word that he was not under investigation. comey didn't really want to do that, and then the next day trump went out in an interview and raised questions about comey's job status. >> in an interview with maria bartiromo. what you're basically laying out is the special counse