so many people including don mcgahn could testify to mueller. they waived that within the executive branch. hypothetically, let's say mcgahn told mueller -- gave mueller evidence that a white house official broke the law. the president's legal team's thinking is that mueller would not be able to introduce that evidence to a grand jury which is part of the judicial branch, not the executive branch, without getting a subpoena. and the president's legal team could then fight it. they could say you can't use that, you can't take what mcgahn told you and use it to build a criminal case. now, there are legal experts who are going to disagree with that analysis, i'm not cosigning it. i'm telling you that's the thinking and the strategizing the president's team is going through in the wake of this story. >> ken vogel, you were the one, i remember you came on the show that day. there was something tongue in cheeky about these guys speaking to loudly. do you in hindsight -- is it interesting to you that was sort of a pebble in the pond that had all these r

since don mcgahn won't do it. now don mcgahn is leaving. it appears from follow-up reporting tonight in the "new york times"ing that don mcgahn is being fired from the white house as opposed to him resigning on his own terms. there was an axios.com story early this morning which said mcgahn was looking to leave, maybe sometime this fall, wanted to get through the stuff with the kavanaugh supreme court nomination, he was starting to think of -- the "times" reports the president pounced on that story as an opportunity beaking to fire don mcgahn. over twitter. naturally. much to don mcgahn's surprise. "the president's tweet was precipitated by a report on the axios website ta don mcgahn planned to leave after cab anyhow's supreme court nomination process concluded. mr. trump had grown tired of seeing reports he might leave according to people familiar with his thinking. and he decided to take away any wiggle room. he decided to take away any wiggle room he might have. as "the washington post" puts it tonight? >> trump's announcement of mcgahn'

the "time's" reported president trump told don mcgahn to go fire robert mueller. mcgahn threatened to resign and he would fought do it. so he's had this central role in all of those marquee events, remain under strut u scrutiny in their ongoing rechlgs on top of all that, don't forget don mcdawn was the top lawyer for the trump company. so to the extent the special counsel is looking for the intervention to help trump and the crucial question of whether or not the trump campaign was aware of that and whether they may have participated or cooperated in any of those efforts?cgahn, was there, too, in a key role on the campaign for monthles. even as recent as this week, don mcgahn has another role and key controversy involving the president in this ongoing scandal, all encompassing scandal that surrounds him and frankly his campaign. vanity fair reporting this week it has been don mcdawn who has been insisting to the president that, no, he can't pardon his campaign chairman palm manafort ahead of manafort's second felony trial, which is due to start next month in washi

you know that don mcgahn did not speak for 30 hours. it had to be broken out in days. every single day the president's lawyers needed to be sitting down with either mcgahn or at least his attorney trying to figure out what in the world is going on. there's a lot of misdirection going on, and the president is in significant legal peril. >> and wolf, part of this problem is that rudy giuliani, the president's personal attorney now, is doing a lot of these things without the white house knowing what's happening. and don mcgahn is trying to save himself. rudy giuliani is the wild card. you don't know what to expect. i've said this before. sarah huckabee sanders got upset. they're just not knowing what's going on with what rudy giuliani is doing. >> she's saying rudy giuliani is saying he's worried the president is going to make inconsistent statements. that's exactly what rudy giuliani is doing. he's changing his story about trump tower. he's changing his story about whether there was collusion. even if there is, it's not incapsulated in the federal code, which is technical

white house counsel don mcgahn will be leaving his position in the fall shortly after the confirmation, hopefully, of judge brett kavanaugh to the united states supreme court. i have worked with don for a long time and truly appreciate his service. this afternoon trump was asked about the departing white house counsel. >> don mcgahn is a really good guy, been with me for a long time. privately before this he represented me. he's been here now almost two years, and a lot of affection for don. >> according to several reports, mcgahn did not know in advance about trump's plans to announce his departure. the "washington post" spoke to one person about mcgahn's response to the trump announcement writing, his reaction was, of course, it happened this way. don mcgahn worked with trump during the 2016 election before he was appointed to be white house counsel. and during an interview at this year's cpac, mcgahn talked about his influence within the west wing. >> i advise the president on a range of issues from constitutional law, executive power, whether or not we can go to war, judicial selec

so are you concerned with the absence of don mcgahn might mean? >> yes, of course. i think mcgahn has been a source of imposing the rule of law on the white house. look, i'm not defending trump. i'm not defending his actions. i've only expressed my professional scholarly views on what i think the law is and what i think the constitution says. i want to explain one thing. there are three kinds of privileges. the president does not have a lawyer/client privilege with the white house counsel, but he does have executive privilege with the white house counsel. and then there is a third area that is very much in doubt that the courts have generally ruled against that is if you are a subject of an investigation, you can have a joint defense privilege with other people, and some have tried to raise that about white house counsel. but the courts have generally ruled against it. but the president and his legal team made a decision to waive executive privilege. and i think maybe they may be regretting that decision, because they don't know exactly what mcgahn said to mueller. a

question is, what has don mcgahn revealed?president trump threatens to revoke more security clearances, he's now daring the former cia director john brennan to sue. this as dozens and dozens of former intelligence officials unite against the president's

"the new york times" revealed this weekend that don mcgahn submitted to at least three interviews that totalled 30 hours over the past nine months. mcgahn discussed the president's firing of michael flynn and the president's firing of james comey and the president's conflicts with jeff sessions. the times reports mr. mcgahn gave to mr. mueller's investigators a sense of the president's mindset in the days leading to the firing of mr. comey. how the white house handled the firing of former national security adviser michael t. flynn and how mr. trump repeatedly ber rated mr. sessions, tried to get him to assert control over the investigation and threatened to fire him. don mcgahn's cooperation is central to possible obstruction of justice by the president. in a follow up report after its original story "the new york times" reported that president trump's lawyers don't know how much don mcgahn told the special prosecutors. mr. trump's lawyers realized on saturday they had not been provided a full accounting after "the new york times" published an article describing mcgahn's cooperati coop

from someone who as a member of the senate judiciary committee has had extensive dealings with don mcgahn. senator chris coons, democrat of delaware. we spoke just moments ago. so senator coons, today the chairman of your committee tweeting you hoped the news of mcgahn's departure wasn't true and urging the president not to let that happen. you also had the majority leader mitch mcconnell call the news sad news for our country. were you surprised to hear them speak out on this when often they choose to stay silent? >> well, i was surprised by the news that don mcgahn, the white house counsel, is about to leave. he has worked tirelessly to advance one of president trump's key objectives, which is to confirm conservative judges. and i did find in working with don mcgahn on judges for delaware that it's possible to have a constructive working relationship with him. but i've got my own questions or concerns about what it means that he is departing. my belief is that don mcgahn has been advising president trump strongly against doing things that would be inappropriate like interfering in the m

don mcgahn, are you listening?here's no aol gags in the "the new york times" story that don mcgahn is a rat, number one. number two, even if he has given up to the goods they exist, he already did it. any sort of cajoling, anger, surprise by the president, the damage if there is damage to be done is done in the 30 hours. >> most others call john dean as a patriot. is the president defending richard nixon? that seems to be what he's implying in the tweet. going back to the other point about how this sort of all began according to "the new york times" with don mcgahn, he became suspicious allegedly after hearing, overhearing or hearing "the new york times" report that one of the reporters had overheard two of the president's lawyers speaking very loudly at a restaurant about the investigation, about how they differed with don mcgahn on their views as to how the president should proceed and mcgahn is suspicious saying maybe the president's trying to throw me under the bus and thus begins this 30 hours worth of testimo

and of course don mcgahn had no idea today's tweet firing was coming. he was not aware that trump planned to send the tweet before it posted, according to a person close to mcgahn. mcgahn who has told many friends that he has wearily even dndure legal battles. his reaction was of course it happened this way, one person said. the president's tweet firing of don mcgahn said this, he will be leaving his position in the fall shortly after the confirmation hopefully of judge brett kavanaugh to the united states supreme court. i have worked with don for a long time and truly appreciate his service! the washington post reports that donald trump and donald mcgahn have had spectacular fights. mcgahn especially during the beginning of trump's term contacted the president about contacting justice department officials. the two men would have spectacular fights, according to a person who witnessed some of them and leaked to the press about them. in today's breaking news report of the discussions of impeachment in the trump white house, the washington post reports mcg

so don mcgahn has been through it all. he was there before the president was elected, during the campaign. obviously those -- that aspect of the investigation still ongoing. important to mueller. so mcgadon mcgahn with the two s that he has been there had the front row seat to a lot of the dealings, a lot of things that the president didscrutinized. >> thank you very much. and joining us now, a democratic senator of hi, key membawaii. senator, do you believe that the president is actually pushing out don mcgahn as part of an overall a effort to end the entire mueller probe? >> i know the president keeps trying to end the mueller probe, but anything that he does with regard to the mueller probe can be deemed part of an obstruction. so he should be very careful. on the other hand, we know don mcgahn had talked to the special counsel people for 30 hours. and now with the departure, he could very well be brought before the mueller people to ask what else. so anything that the president discusses with mcgahn now could be part of

hours over three different occasions around we know that don mcgahn has been around the president at these key moments of interest of the special counsel and the president and the white house are insistent that it is okay, and they are the oneses who gave him the right and the ability to go to have this conversation with the special counsel, and they also were the ones who told him it was okay to waive attorney/client privilege which allowed him to say whatever he knew about the interactions over the past year and half, but what is interesting about all of this is that it is not abundantly clear that the white house knows exactly what dan mcgahn told robert mueller. this is what rudy giuliani said when he was pressed on "meet the press." >> we have a good sense of what he testified to -- >> how do you say that good sense? have you debriefed him? >> no, but mr. dowd does, because he talked to them at the the time. >> and you don't know what mr. mcgahn, 100% of what he testified to mr. mueller? >> i think that through, through john dowd we have a good sense of it, and john dowd yesterd

your reaction to the report about white house counsel don mcgahn, cooperating with the mueller investigation hours of interview time beginning in october, but three separate meetings. the "times" describes mcgahn, who discusses the president's fury at the russia investigation, how he urged mcgahn to respond. examining whether mr. trump obstructed justice. a view of the president's most intimate moments with his lawyer. first of all, it is very usual, certainly, to have an attorney share so much with investigation who are scrutinizing a client, but we have to keep in mind -- well, who is the client here? is it the president, or is it the office of the presidency, the white house oval office? you get first crack. >> i think it is the most important distinction here, alex. when people hear and talk about the president's legal team, because there are so many lawyers involved with donald trump, i think it is really important to stipulate that this is the white house counsel. therefore, he is representing the white house here. his obligations are different than would be for trump's own personal at

but don mcgahn was there for parts of this crucial investigation, the firing of james comey, and the hiring of mcgahn himself, so these conversations i'm sure revealed a lot about the president's state of the mind as he was discussing these things and according to the "new york times" reporting mcgahn was looking after his own legal footing so he had everything to gain by being transparent. >> the question is who is he trying to protect. peter, the "new york times" tweeting earlier that it stands by all of its mcgahn reporting that's -- when trump lashes out against your newspaper, do you think that signals he actually may have something to hide? what does it indicate? >> well, it either indicates he doesn't know what he's talking about or he's intentionally misleading. it's strong throughout this entire period, a year and a half, repeatedly he has psaid something wasn't true and it turned out to be true. the truth is he doesn't know what don mcgahn has said to the special counsel. hi thinks he knows what don mcgahn told the special counsel, but he doesn't really know, he's putting hi

will they ever really know in detail from don mcgahn what he said? he's a witness. he can't very well go back and say this is everything that i said, can he? >> the way it works is it's very, very likely that mcgahn's lawyer reported back to the president's lawyer under a joint defense agreement and sort of shared the nature of what he said. maybe not chapter and verse. probably gave him a sense of it. i think walter is right. think about how extraordinary it is that the president's lawyer, the white house counsel, spent 30 hours with prosecutors and agents. that was over several sessions. so debriefed prosecutors and agents, went back to the white house, went back to work, and then went back and was debriefed again. in essence, he was in some ways a government operative inside the white house, kind of feeding information back to the prosecution. i think other things the president's lawyers are probably concerned about is they keep thinking this thing is coming to an end. the theory early on is if they just cooperated, turned over these documents, provided this incre

he's talking about don mcgahn and jeff sessions. he says i'm very excited about the person who will be taking the place of don mcgahn of white house counsel, he misspells counsel again. i like don but he was not responsible for me not firing bob mueller or jeff sessions. so much fake reporting and fake news. julie, the reporting for a long time has been there was a moment in time when don mcgahn said i'm not going to fire bob mueller, it's either bob mueller or me. the same thing happened with jeff sessions. >> but who is the person he's very excited about. >> that's the other thing, he's telegraphing he's made a puck. this seems like season 8 of "the apprentice," it's just a tease. we don't know if there is someone. >> the leading candidate has been said to be emmet flood who is a former partner who has been working on responding to the mueller investigation from inside the white house. sorry, didn't mean to interrupt julie if she was about to say something. >> i was going to say the same thing and he has been don mcgahn's preferre

in a surprise announcement on twitter, president trump revealing that white house counsel don mcgahn will be leaving his position in the fall. now mcgahn may know better than anyone else whether the president obstructed justice. in fact it was just 11 days ago we learned mcgahn had been cooperating extensively with the special counsel. three voluntary interviews lasting all told some 30 hours. yet today trump telling reporters that he's not concerned. >> very good man. don, excellent guy. yeah, don mcgahn is a really good guy. been with me for a long time, privately before this he represented me. he's been here now it will be almost two years. >> any concern about what you said to the mueller team? >> no, not at all. not at all. i knew he was going also. i had to approve it. so we didn't claim executive -- no, i don't have to be aware. we have -- we do everything straight. we do everything by the book. don is an excellent guy. >> only when we learned about mcgahn's interview, sources told cnn that trump was in fact unnerved and rattled that mcgahn never provided a full readout of what

the white house is trying to downplay signs of trouble after "the new york times" reported that don mcgahn has cooperated with the russia investigation. cnn has learned mcgahn's attorney did not give president trump's lawyers a full debrief after 30 hours of interviews with robert mueller's team. cnn's source saying the president's attorneys did not ask. >> "the times" said mcgahn cooperated so extensively because he planned the president would set him up for any illegal obstruction of justice. now the statements could fill in key blanks in mueller's report. for the latest, let's welcome in ryan nobles. >> reporter: dave and christine, the legal team of the president's spent a lot of time to convince the american people that the report is not damaging to the president. in fact it was his legal team's idea for don mcgahn to sit down with robert mueller and the special counsel. listen to what rudy giuliani, the president's chief spokesperson with his legal defense, had to say. >> we had a good sense of what mr. mcgahn testified to. i can figure it out. >> you don't know what he testified to

what do you make of don mcgahn's departure?r the president and his legal team going forward? >> two things can be true at the same time. first thing is that don mcgahn sat down for 30 hours with the special counsel's office, and you don't typically do that unless the special counsel is interested in what you have to say. the second true thing is that donald trump may actually believe that don mcgahn has nothing damaging about him to say. those two things may be true. however, what trump may be ignoring is as an observer and as a lawyer don mcgahn may have seen and heard things that are significant to him but not significant to the president, who doesn't seem to take a tremendous amount of interest in the minutae of legal dealers. >> that's interesting when it comes to the role of don mcgahn in this. it is no secret that they butted heads in the firing of manafort. but when it comes to the president versus the personal donald trump, is that where you see it is leading up to, the 30-hours of voluntary testimony? do you think it i

rigged russia witch-hunt did not come into play, even a little bit, with respect to my decision on don mcgahn. my decision, that's new. is it an add myths that trump himself pushed mcgahn out for trump getting rid of a mueller witness could take the obstruction of justice case against him from bad to worse. and that was just one tweet. the president also hit a host of other flash points in mueller's investigation, including his reported attempts to fire robert mueller and jeff sessions. james comey's to rob mueller and the lester holt interview when he admitted russia was on his mind when he fired comey. some of the things he's ranting about like comey's testimony and the lester holt interview aren't even in the news right now, which raises the question, what's really triggering trump this time? some point to this tweet for a possible answer. >>> i just cannot state strongly enough how totally dishonest much of the media is. truth doesn't matter to them, they only have their hatred and agenda. this includes fake books, which come out about me all the time, always anonymous sources, and are pu

talks about the president's lawyers actually have no idea the depth of the conversations between don mcgahn with the special counsel team and what they covered. they agreed to mcgahn to sit for the conversations and waived attorney/client privilege. they had no idea what don mcgahn would say when he sat down with the special counsel's team. there are few people who have insight into the president's conduct especially with the russia probe for the past year and a half. the big problem today is the white house doesn't know how to handle these interactions and what it could mean for the investigation going forward. dave and christine. >> ryan, thank you. >>> trump attorney rudy giuliani has a new fact style explanation for keeping the president away from robert mueller. listen to what he told nbc about not allowing the special counsel to rush mr. trump to testifying. >> when you tell me he should testify because he is going to tell the truth and not worry. that is so silly. that is somebody's version of the truth. not the truth. >> truth is truth. >> truth isn't truth. the president of the uni

the president sends contradictory signals on the departure of don mcgahn. is he preoccupied by mcgahn's cooperation, 30 hours with the mueller investigation? you are in the situation room. pah! that will never work. no, no, no, nah. a bulb of light?!? aha ha ha! a flying machine? impossible! a personal' computer?! ha! smart neighborhoods running on a microgrid. a stadium powered with solar. a hospital that doesn't lose power. amazing. i like it. never gonna happen. >>> breaking news, president trump in a new interview with bloomberg declining to say whether he will keep the attorney general jeff sessions beyond the november mid term elections. let's bring in our political experts. it sounds like sessions will be gone after the november election. not much confidence from his boss, the president. >> absolutely not. this could be a bit of a relief. i think a lot of people wondered if sessions could last until the mid terms. now the president is taking what actually is kind of a gift given to him by lindsey graham and saying we'll hold off until after the mid te

don mcgahn was the person they went to. he was the person they went to about the recusal of jeff session, and of course about firing robert mueller. last summer we reported at cnn that he in fact was the person who threatened to quit to stop what he thought would be another saturday night massacre. this is somebody who mule worry be keenly interested in speaking with. and why republicans and in particular donald trump would be very nervous to have this person unleashed. remember, donald trump and his team could have invoked, although it would have been difficult to have it go into court battles eventually, he could have invoked the privilege. he chose not to. everything he said was fair game and can be used against him in the court of law and a court of public opinion. >> thank you both. i appreciate your time. >> thank you. >> when we come back, don mcgahn and his deputy both leaving the white house counsel office at what might just be the worst possible time. i'm going to ask a man who himself served in that office what m

what we have seen under don mcgahn's leadership is the opposite. it's sad. when we have built a white house that tried to stay compliant with the rules, the mcgahn reign in the white house has shown repeated violations of the government act. more than rules limiting contact from the department of justice. he's really been largely silent not holding people accountable. >> what do you think of that assessment? >> well, i mean, i -- i agree with it, but i think we're in a situation where if the arm is cut off we're not going to worry about the broken ankle. at this point one thing he has done is keep the mueller investigation going. if the reports are correct, he's argued with the president against firing robert mueller, he argued against the firing of james comey, fbi director. he didn't stand in the way successfully of sessions from recusing himself from the russia probe. and at this point that's where we are in america. where we have russians interfering with our election, and some serious concerns about obstruction of justice as well as collusion for lack o

i was next door to don mcgahn at the national republican congressional committee. he was my next door neighbor of i've known don for years. i like don mcgahn. as he good hair, a careful lawyer. don mcgahn is not getting disbarred or going to jail for donald trump. what the trump people don't understand is this. he is not the president's personal attorney. he is the white house counsel. he is an assistant to the president. he is a commissioned officer. he doesn't work for donald trump. he works for us. he works for the american people. >> the president may also be troubled to their michael cohen case may be approaching some sort of determination. the president's former personal attorney is reportedly about to face charges for over $20 million in bank fraud. nbc news is reporting that multiple people familiar with the investigation say prosecutors could seek the indict cohen by the end of this month or they may wait until after election day. on that, let us bring in our lead-off panel on a monday night. moderator of washington week on pbs. former u.s. attorney joyce v

and i'm not going to give don mcgahn the credit that he just got. i actually think if you're being the lawyer that mcgahn has already been which is a on trump mission and an aggressive lawyer for donald trump, he was his campaign lawyer and he was very aggressive with the sec, this is a guy who, if he is doing his job, which i think he did in this instance, is say don't do it because it's actually going to beef up the case against you. not just because i'm really trying to protect the history of how pardons are used. >> there is a saying that if don mcgahn were free styling he wouldn't need a hype man because he does so much hyping for himself. that's something that's been said in legal circles in washington. david and joyce, thank you, maya stays with me for another big thing later in the show. >>> up ahead, paul manafort's lawyers in court today, the mueller team with a surprise announcement. we'll tell you what they said, and new numbers, cohen's plea deal is calling for more to sit down. >>> jay goldberg is back. he said this on "the beat." >> he

"the new york times" reporting white house top lawyer don mcgahn has cooperated extensively with the investigation and met with the special counsel teams three times totaling more than 40 years starting in november. people familiar with the investigation said mcgahn gave them the president's mind set of the days leading up to the firing of james comey and how they handled michael flynn and how president trump berated attorney general sessions and tried to get into control over the investigation and threatened to fire him. president trump tweeted saying mcgahn's interview was part of the white house's effort to be cooperative and reiterating his battle cry that the investigation is a witch hunt. rudy giuliani, meanwhile, is accusing the mueller team of leaking the story, saying it is part of an effort to think mcgahn is setting him up for a fall. here is what giuliani said in an interview last night. >> the best analysis would be that the mueller team is panicking. they know they don't have a case. there was no collusion. there was no obstruction. they can't prove it and they are tryin

. >> reporter: dave and kaylee, president trump's announcement that don mcgahn would be leaving in the near future came as a surprise to many here. even republican senators were surprised donald trump made the decision. mcgahn was expected to leave the white house after the confirmation of brett kavanaugh, the nominee for the supreme court. mcgahn had been at the white house since the very beginning of the trump administration. our sources tell us he has had an estranged relationship with president trump for over a year now. in that period of time, mcgahn has also become a witness in special counsel robert mueller's russia probe. president trump responding to the news that he broke himself over twitter had nothing but praise for mcgahn when we spoke to him at the white house on wednesday. listen. >> excellent guy. don mcgahn is a really good guy. been with me for a long time. privately before this. he represented me. he's been here now, almost two years. a lot of affection for don. he'll be moving on probably to the private sector. maybe the private sector. he will do very well. he has

or his attorney about the 30 hours of enter vice that we can now confirm that don mcgahn sat for with special counsel's team. a source familiar with mcgahn's interview says that mcgahn did not provide any incriminating information to mutual better the president. nevertheless, don mcgahn has been the white house counsel since the president stepped into office. he was around on the campaign before then and particularly during his time at the white house he present for a series of crucial moments including the firing of fbi director james comey, the president's attempts to fire the special counsel, robert mueller. for now, brooke, the white house is declining to comment any further on this. they put out a statement over the weekend insisting that the president and don mcgahn have a very strong relationship. nonetheless, the president is using this of course as an opportunity to criticize special counsel once again. some of the tweets that you just mentioned over there. he is using in particular these 30 hours of interviews with don mcgahn as a jumping point to say that mueller is looking

one of the most revealing is his comments on don mcgahn.he president said the rigged russia witch hunt did not come into play even a little bit with respect to my decision on don mcgahn. do you buy that? >> i find this president has a tendency to project what he is worried people are thinking in these. i don't see how it wasn't a factor. there had been grumbling that he was unhappy with him. now he is going out weeks after this came out and says it wasn't their idea. i don't know how much we were talking about that before that. i find it hard to not infer that this is what he is concerned is the truth and that we might -- >> my decision -- it was well known around town that when mcgamcg mcgahn was going to leave after the kavanagh confirmation. i think before the rubber hit the road in terms of sessions and the mueller report -- this is mcgahn's choice. trump can't stand the idea that a grown man has chosen to resign after two years which is a perfectly normal span of office. trump has to be the one in charge. it has to be his decision to f

rigged russia witch hunt did not come into play, even a little bit, with respect to my decision on don mcgahn. the president announced mcgahn's departure yesterday in a tweet that even mcgahn wasn't expecting. jeremy diamond is at the white house. the president said that he is excited about mcgahn's replacement. we have some idea as to who that may be. are we getting any indications from the white house as to who he is picking to replace mcgahn? >> i spoke with a senior white house official who says the sense inside the white house is no final decision has yet been made as to who will succeed don mcgahn. that's despite the president's tweet where he said, i am very excited about the person who will be taking the place of don mcgahn as white house counsel. i like don but he was not responsible for me not firing mueller or sessions. so much fake reporting and fake news. despite the fact that the president hasn't named a successor for don mcgahn, the senior white house official said flood really does appear to be the top contender. he is the special counsel handling everything with regard to the

viewed that the president had nothing to hide, but what "the new york times" is reporting is that don mcgahn and his lawyer were concerned that perhaps mcgahn might be being set up by donald trump and his team and that perhaps he would be viewed as a scapegoat as robert mueller continued to investigate the possibility of obstruction of justice by the white house or the president himself. and the fact that mcgahn is sitting down and being so open with robert mueller is important, because mcgahn knows so much about what's gone on in this white house over the past year and a half. here's a sample of some of the things that mcgahn is likely to have inside information about. we know, for instance, that he threatened to quit if the president ever fired robert mueller. we also know that in january of 2017, that don mcgahn knew there was a chance that michael flynn, the former national security adviser, had likely lied to the fbi, and of course, he was also warned by jeff sessions that if, for any reason, the president decided to fire the deputy attorney general, rod rosenstein, that sessions himsel

experienced legal fire power to the office of white house counsel which is losing its lead lawyer don mcgahn. >> president trump announcing on twitter wednesday mcgahn will leave the job in the fall after the expected confirmation of supreme court nominee brett kavanaugh. mcgahn's departure was not unexpected, but he was blind sided by the tweet. having not announced his timetable to leave. we get more from abby phillip at the white house. >> reporter: dave and kaylee, we get the word that he would leave the white house in the near future came as a surprise. even republican senators were surprised donald trump made the decision. mcgahn was expected to leave the white house after the confirmation of brett kavanaugh, the nominee for the supreme court. mcgahn had been at the white house since the very beginning of the trump administration. our sources tell us he has had an estranged relationship with president trump for over a year now. in that period of time, mcgahn has also become a witness in special counsel robert mueller's russia probe. president trump responding to the news that he broke

now, that doesn't change the fact that don mcgahn hated this strategy from day one. he thought it was dangerous for exactly the reason i has pointed out this rule has two special duties. you are representing the office of the president and are you representing the president. if you are sitting in all these private meetings and some investigator gets to quiz you about everything the president said to you, that's, you know, potentially explosive. he didn't want that to happen. >> quickly, let me ask you this, the word rat, it really is striking to hear the president of the united states use the word rat and john dean, the whistleblower of watergate. >> think about the spirited effect it has on prosecutors around the country desperately trying to enforce the laws to protect us as american citizens from people doing harm, looking to get witnesses to work with them to prevent people literally from being murdered. here's the president backing up the arguments of mob bosses getting people out to testify. here's why i think the president is going out with the all out sort of

don mcgahn set to leave his job. he

"the new york times" report says that don mcgahn has been cooperating are the mueller investigation and participating in several interviews totaling 30 hours over the last nine months. >> president trump says he, quote, allowed mcgahn to fully cooperate are the special counsel. "the times" reported that mcgahn was worried he might be president trump's fallguy, so to speak, for any potentially illegal incidents or obstruction. cnn white house reporter sarah westwood is live from new jersey where the president is spending the weekend. what are we learning further this morning? >> reporter: president trump is speaking up to downplay the significance of "the new york times" white house that don mcgahn on the obstruction of justice portion of his inquiry. the times is reporting that mcgahn spent 30 hours with investigators and provided potentially damaging information about the ways trump responded in private to developments in the russia probe. rudy giuliani, the president's personal attorney, is arguing that mcgahn served as a strong witness for the president. here is what he had to say ab

if things went south, trump would then say look, i just got terrible advice from don mcgahn and that's when i made the decision related to a number of issues such as -- that's how i did what i did. and mcgahn went in and he was quite open about a number of topic, including things that is not clear mueller would have known otherwise. one of the things talked about was the fact that trump had told him to have mueller dismissed last year. and i realize there has been a lot of pushback from people who are not privy to don mcgahn and trump's prior conversations and insists none of that ever happened. he says it did happen. so that's where why he did what he did and where it becomes a danger aside from the obvious, which is that you have an eye witness now telling all kinds of things to special counsel investigating on a possible obstruction and don't forget, investigating possible collusion between the trump campaign and russia government. don mcgahn was the lawyer for campaign. i don't think that's irrelevant. you end up in a situation where mcgahn has been very deep in a lot of these conv

>> oh, i don't think it sends any message to don mcgahn. hink he should have called him a rat, that's mobster talk, let's face it. but the key difference between mcgahn and john dean is that dean was not only involved in the initial planning stages for what became the watergate break-in, but he was an absolute key player in the cover-up. dean committed numerous criminal acts, encouraged people to destroy evidence, encouraged people to lie. there's no suggestion whatsoever that don mcgahn has done any of that. >> i'm just curious on your take on all of the behavior of the president and his team. if they're really not worried about anything and he's done nothing wrong, why go on the offensive against robert mueller? why launch such a brutal pr strategy to tear down the credibility of everybody involved? >> that's a great question. as trey gowdy said a couple of months ago, talking to the president's attorneys, if you've got an innocent client, why don't you act like it. any prosecutor looking at how the president has acted toward bob mueller o

the president values don mcgahn experti expertise. 30 hours is a long time to be talking to federal investigators and some of the president's advisers are concerned that mcgahn insights may help the special counsel team fill in the gaps as they work on this probe. >> jeff bennett, thank you for that. >> jeremy peters and our msnbc contributor, and glenn kershner. jeremy, let me start with these people. this is what the "time" wrote. they took mr. trump at his words that he did nothing wrong and sold him on an open book strategy. i mean -- i guess one moral of the story is be honest with your lawyers or maybe just he really does not believe that he has done anything wrong in any case not once arguing executive privilege apparently even mechanic gain mcgahn's lawyer were flabbergasted by that, right? >> there is despairty of what's reality and what donald trump's mind has going on in there. i think that there is no question that trump is somebody who believes at times that what he's saying is the truth when in fact it is certainly not. to have your lawyers put you down in front of prosecutors when

stark contrast to what our sources have told us over the past few weeks and that is this that don mcgahn's 30 hours of discussions with the special counsel unnerved president trump and that the president didn't know the full extent of the talks so we reported this several weeks ago when word of mcgahn's cooperation with the special counsel came out but then, of course, yesterday when jim acosta pressed the president, president trump did just brush it off. take a listen. >> any concern about what he said to mueller? >> no at all. not at all. i knew he was going. i had to approve it. we didn't claim executive -- >> reporter: you're aware of what he said? >> no, we do everything straight. we do everything by the book. >> and the president saying he has a lot of affection for mcgahn but theirs has been somewhat of a rocky relationship over the past 18 months. don mcgahn has pushed back on some of the president's demands including threatening to quilt when the president pressed don mcgahn to fire special counsel robert mueller and it's those types of incidents that has made mcgahn himself an im

there's news, by the way, about the president, about white house counsel don mcgahn, not given a head's up about the president tweeting with his upcoming departure. we'll get to mcgahn in a moment but first i want to talk about that closed-door meeting with trump and evangelical leaders. joining me now is nbc news intelligence and national security reporter ken dilanian who first got news of this. ken, i saw this article that you wrote when this news first came out and i thought there must be a mistake. the president cannot actually be warning a constituency that if they lose the midterm elections, there will be violence by their opponents, because this is america in 2018. that can't be true. >> you know what's interesting, ali, i almost read right over that passage as i was reviewing that transcript because we are so used to this kind of rhetoric from donald trump that we almost discount it. i've seen interviews with some of the people in the room who suggested that either this never happened or this wasn't material. but the words, you're absolutely right, the words are important and t

yesterday we learned that president trump's white house counsel don mcgahn has been cooperating fully with robert mueller's investigation. that was, of course, the president's legal strategy at one time. not anymore. to complete the watergate circle, yesterdcircle john dean tweeted mcgahn is doing right. friday night "the washington post" reported the white house has already drafted documents to punish mr. trump's opponents that we listed above and that white house officials have discussed timing the release of the documents, quote, as a distraction during an favorable news cycles. that certainly seemed to be the goal this week as the white house broke the brennan news at the height of one of those, quote, unfavorable news cycles. >> they should be looking at all these fbi guys who got fired and demoted. it's a really -- it's not us. >> president trump reportedly furious about the nonstop coverage of omarosa manigault newman. >> what mr. nixon -- i mean mr. trump does will be brought to light. >> tried to change the subject, testing the waters on how far he can go to personally interv