immigration debate, malcolm gladwell podcast revisionist history has an interesting episode about pecos to the history of immigration basically he argues for less enforcement at the border as a solution, that when there was more enforcement that cause people to stay here in the trade and not being able to freely go back. anyway, the question i had the was about, so if you have like, so, for example, if you have the rights and the politicians on the right using, say, minorities struggles as a wedge issue, how do you think that these minorities should struggle to get more rights, more recognition? or are you saying that should they just kind of be quiet for a while? >> no. no, i mean, i guess it really depends on the specific ways in which you articulate your agenda and the kind specific policy. so, for example, i really like the affordable care act, right? i think that was a great example of a general social policy. it had great benefits for african-americans as well as for rural whites who are not getting adequate access to health care. and i think that's the kind of, that's my idea of