joining me, chuck rosenberg, former assistant u.s. attorney, and maya wiley, senior vice president for social justice at the new school and msnbc legal analyst. chuck, obviously you know andy mccabe. how unusual would it be for a grand jury first of all to say to a prosecutor when we're always told, and the cliche is, grand juries will indict a ham sandwich, to say no? >> highly unusual, andrea. let me address the ham sandwich remark because that stinks a little bit. the reason grand juries often or almost always indict is because the standard in grand juries is probable cause, a relatively low standard in the low. prosecutors know they must have a reasonable probability of conviction in order to proceed. so a good prosecutor would never go to a grand jury with a bad case. a good prosecutor would go when she knew that she had more than she needed. and if you have more than you need, you certainly have at least probable cause. but for grand jury, if in fact this is what happened, to reject the government's indictment, highly, highly unu

we're lucky to have with us tonight for more chuck rosenberg, former u.s. attorney, former senior fbi official, and michael schmidt, pulitzer prize-winning washington correspondent for the "new york times." so chuck, let's not mince words. mueller spins this off. it's clear he and his folks want to see this prosecuted. though isn't this a tough one to prosecute? >> these are tough cases to prosecute, brian. but i think there's an important lesson here. number one, look, sometimes you bring a tough case and you lose. the conviction rate for the department of justice at trial is over 90%. but it's not 100%. so when you have cases where you have to prove intent, and that's always the most difficult thing, occasionally prosecutors lose. it doesn't mean that the case was brought in bad faith or improperly brought. it just means that the jury saw it a different way. and that happens. >> michael schmidt, what have we learned from this case other than the fact that some people just go to the highest bidder and regard money as not being dirty as long as it's green? >

at the time of the zacarias moussaoui conviction is a man who's face may be familiar to you, chuck rosenbergsses that 9/11 prosecution of an al qaeda member on his msnbc podcast which is excellent called "the oath." because of that, we've asked chuck rosenstein, former district attorney from virginia to be here tonight. >> wonderful to see you. >> first of all, tell me if i got any of that wrong. >> no, you're right. you got it right. >> zacarias moussaoui was picked up before 9/11. 9/11 happened while he was in custody. he was charged in part for his connection to those attacks. >> that's right. >> and it took years to convict him? >> it did. the eastern district of virginia, known as the rocket docket, things tend to move quickly. his moved relatively slowly. he was indicted in december of 2001 and ultimately sentenced to life in prison in may of 2006. still 13 years ago. >> yes. and that's the thing. that's described for the eastern district of virginia as an incredibly slow, complex trial. boy, did that take a long time to wind through. i mean, you compare that to what happened to the ot

we have an msnbc contributor and host of the great podcast "the oath" with chuck rosenberg. you for being here. tell me the notion of the origin of this permission to indict, did that come from william barr? >> well, it would have come at least from the deputy attorney general who works directly for william barr, so i imagine that the leadership of the department of justice gave the u.s. attorney the green light to proceed. >> what makes me nervous about that is this notion that william barr would be willing to carry out what trump sees as the edict to go after his enemies, meaning anyone who is investigating his connections to russia. >> putting mr. barr aside for the moment, the problem with the president weighing in as vociferously as this one did suggested that no matter what happens, the process has been tainted. you don't have any presidents other than this one opining about who ought to be prosecuted by the justice department that he oversees. and so even if they have a valid case, even if prosecutors are acting in good faith, if they bring charges, there is the dange

but that has to count for something when you can watch the process. >> chuck rosenberg, former u.s.he eastern district of virginia along with other impressive things on his resume. "the oath," he talks to the lead prosecutor in the trial. it's like a visit to another world in which this really is the way it could have dgone. thanks, chuck. >> thank you, rachel. >> we'll be right back. stay with us. >> we'll be right back stay with us ♪ ♪ applebee's handcrafted burgers now starting at $7.99. process. >> thank you, rachel. process. >> thank you, rachel. orhood you wouldn't accept an incomplete job from anyone else. why accept it from your allergy pills? orhood flonase sensimist. nothing stronger. nothing gentler. nothing lasts longer. flonase sensimist. 24 hour non-drowsy allergy relief for a restless night's sleep. pain settle there's a better choice. aleve pm. the only one to combine a safe sleep aid and the 12-hour pain-relieving strength of aleve that dares to last into the morning. so you feel refreshed. aleve pm. there's a better choice. hey, who are you? oh, hey jeff, i'm a car

>> sure. >> i love chuck rosenberg with a passion that is hard to describe. i think he's a great american. i'll watch him any time of the day or night, but can i take issue with one thing? congress has not failed to act. the republican senate has failed to act. the house of representatives under democratic leadership has passed back in february many steps that ought to be done immediately, and we're going to pass more now. that's not congress failing to act, it's one party in one house of congress failing to act. let's be clear about that. mitch mcconnell needs to feel the pressure on this, and the voters need to start making it a priority when they're thinking about choosing senators, because the house is where it should be. senate is standing in the doorway. >> yeah, but congressman, couldn't governors in some of these states not necessarily point the finger at one lawmaker or another? the states are being forced to act because washington in total isn't doing anything. >> that's a fair point, but i don't want to let the republicans off the hook by saying, o

. >> chuck rosenberg, let me ask you about what might be accomplished as a result of this, the justice resolution. i gather from the reporting i've read, one thing that could change is there could be questioning by staff counsel of witnesses who are brought before that committee. another thing that could change is that material could be discussed in closed session, which i gather might open the door to allowing the discussion of some grand jury materials. >> yeah, that's right, david. so i think these procedural changes, if enacted, might be helpful to democrats at the margin. but they have a few other hurdles. in other words, in order to get grand jury information, they don't just need to set up a room in which they can read it. they also have to get a court to order it to be disclosed to them. then going back to your first question about what mr. clyburn said earlier, that's why the words matter. if it actually is an impeachment inquiry or an impeachment proceeding, they're more likely to convince a court to give them that stuff. but, look, this is a little bit like giving the keys t

back with us tonight, we're so fortunate to have chuck rosenberg, former u.s. attorney, former senior fbi official. happens to be the host of the msnbc podcast, as many of you already know, called "the oath," now in its second season as they cover season 3 of the trump white house. chuck, can michael cohen say no when prosecutors show up at the prison where he's incarcerated? >> theoretically, yes, he can say no. you see that sort of conduct in the movies. in real life people in prison or people facing prison time are rational actors. and so if you have the ability, the opportunity to cooperate with the feds or with state law enforcement and to perhaps work off some of your time in return for your information, most rational thinkers, most rational beings do exactly that. >> what do these investigators want to know? >> so it's a violation of -- let me back up for a second. lots of things are a violation of federal law and state law. they can be prosecuted by either. bank robbery, drug dealing, tax evasion. here what was a federal violation, the campaign finance

chuck rosenberg, good to see you. >>> season 2 of "the oath" is available wherever you get your podcast. join him. it's good. >>> a new report from "the washington post" helps explain why john bolton is out of the white house. administration officials say the former national security adviser is the latest adviser to struggle to obey the president's, quote, unspoken rules. the president sometimes calf caesque management style and the expectations he sets for those in his direct employ. white house reporter and msnbc political contributor ashley parker. explain what you're talking about, ashley? >> what we were trying to capture was the president's rules are -- some might say who have worked for him, nightmarish, sort of confounding and confusing and make no sense and don't seem to behave by a rational set of rules or expectations or dictums, and that is like out of a kafka novel, zins why does the president not want advisers, according to your reporting, who advise him? what does he actually want? >> it's a little mixed. what he wants is on the one hand, this is a president who does soli

attorney and former senior fbi chuck rosenberg and rick stengel, former managing editor at time magazine. why does this story matter? >> it matters for a couple of reasons. first, nicole, you would hope that there's company, a grownup somewhere who would say i'm just not going to do that. what you're asking me to do doesn't make sense. i remember many years in graduate school professors saying never hire anybody who's desperate for the job. hire somebody with enough professional detachment who can walk away. that's an important thing. here's another reason why it matters. if i were president, and by the way, i'd rather have a root canal every day for four years. [ laughter ] i would surround myself with the most experienced, smartest people i could find. some people think of that as the deep state. but i would want professional career civil servants with expertise in their fields. those are the people who can make or break an administration. those are the people who really know what's going on and how to execute on policy. and so undermining them strikes me not just as wrong but as incre

and then, i had the opportunity to add an if it with chuck rosenberg who was the acting head of the dba, you'll see him now on and be see in the lb talking about legal issues. he went ahead at the dea. it is on opioid abuse. some kind of public service announcement. check was running very late. were there at the if it i found myself in this room. i was there for public affairs with the director. this was the norm, he would just interview people. to start talking to them. who are you and just start talking to them. what i didn't know was finally called me about the tweet so i knew i was on his radar but i said and realized it was a job interview which i didn't realize. he asked me how are things going in the fbi. the u.s., my doing. i remember pausing taking so the ceo is asking me how i think he is doing. the unit there was i was a week and a off from being my headquarters assignment going back to the field. so this happened in a split second but it felt like an eternity c. i'm going to the field there's nothing they can do to me, [laughter] semi to the field right. so when am i going t

lankford is saying we need to do background checks on private sales, then this needle has moved. >> chuck rosenbergas i said, chuck is officially a podcast star. season two of his podcasts the oath is available now wherever you get your podcasts. >> i listened to that yesterday. >> it's great. in the first episode chuck speaks with rob spencer, the man who led the team that prosecuted za -- democrat chris coons joins us. also ahead our next guest calling on the trump administration to work as hard to free a navy veteran being held in iran as it did to free rapper a sap rocky from sweden. montell williams joins us here on set next on "morning joe." johnson & johnson is a baby company. but we're also a cancer fighting, hiv controlling, joint replacing, and depression relieving company. from the day you're born we never stop taking care of you. but we're also a cancer fighting, hiv controlling, joint replacing, and depression relieving company. from the day you're born we never stop taking care of you. >>> mr. president, are you thinking of arranging a meeting with iranian president rouhani? >> i'm no