side, of course boz bolton, sondland and secretary perry was there. >> okay. now, you testified that before the july 10th meeting you had developed concerns about the narrative involving rudy giuliani. is that correct? >> that is correct. >> and had you heard firsthand account from anyone on the inside? or had you just been following news accounts? >> so i certainly was following news accounts. and that's from the ukrainian side, ukrainian press and u.s. press. >> okay. and then -- >> and my colleagues in the interagency also were concerned about this as this had started in the maritime frame kind of emanating from the john sol man story all the way through. so there had been ongoing conversations so several different source, counsel. >> okay. and so when ambassador sondland mentioned the investigations, you sort of had a little bit of a clue what the issue was? >> oh, definitely. >> okay. then you took the photo, very nice photo, then you went to the ward room? >> correct. >> and do you remember, i think you can conceded to us you had a hard time remembering