and i'm speaking specifically about the writing you did today about the lessons from jefferson davis. >> well, exactly right, brian. 160 years ago today, jefferson davis was chosen as the president of the so-called confederate state of america, and his mission was to start an insurrection against the united states so that the south could be an independent slave-loving republic forever. we fought a tragic civil war for four years. we defeated the south, we the north and jefferson davis, he was imprisoned for a couple of years and never was put on trial. the result was that he said for the rest of his life, the south never won the war. we were able to have won. it sounds like donald trump. we need to never see again what we saw on january 6th. donald trump has taken a sledgehammer to institutions of democracy, rule of law, other traditions. congress now owes it to us to create ways to make sure that that doesn't happen again. the first thing they can do, and this includes especially republican senators, is to vote for conviction and say, here a president tried to steal our democracy on

neither jefferson davis nor robert e lee. this so when we get out on the field understand why robert e lee is there to annihilate the union army that he might win the okay, here's his plan. on this map this is the eastern theater the united states the confederates are in red the union and blue you can see washington to the north and richmond of the south the two army separated by the rappahannock river starting on the third of june 1863 robert e lee will throw his army over the appalachian mountains and use the shenandoah valley as an avenue of invasion he always believed the union army will follow me in fact he shares his vision for how this whole thing will go on the 27th of june he says i believe the union army will come up probably through frederick they'll be hungry strung out by hard marching and much demoralized and as they enter into pennsylvania i will throw an overwhelming force against their front and follow up my success crush one core and drive it pack up on another and through success of repulses and surprises b

he said i couldn't write a biography of herbert hoover and jefferson davis.at's what he always said. sometimes when there is an animus, there is a certain amount of prejudice and evolved. he really built stanton's biography, but bill does the research and sears does the research. steven sears's research is excellent, and sears's newest volume is even more hostile to mcclelland then the biography. he has even more hostile words, not less. read sears. he is the best. mark is not uncritical of mcclellan, but he is more sympathetic as well. >> there is a famous incident after these seven days battle where mcclellan sends a telegram to the war department basically saying that this administration is responsible for the defeat of this army, but [inaudible] -- >> would mcclellan have been sacked at the time? potentially. eventually, those become known. again, lincoln has opportunities. i think lincoln gets certain credit for being patient with mcclellan. some would say lincoln was far too patient with mcclellan, but of course, the other thing that has to be kept in m

that's what put him in opposition of jefferson davis who said what are you giving this land away to these people. why don't they work for it like everybody else or have a famous family where you can grab land. but the point was he was an all measures an understanding person about the nature of poverty. and the nature of class in america. he just couldn't not get past the racial question. he believed in the blacks. he believed that because of that, they should either basically said i don't care where they go. they could be emancipated, but they are not going to have rights, the same kinds of rights that white men would have. he figured and said very openly, that the united states should be a white man's government. this was not an unusual thing. he was a jacksonian. he began his career as a young man, who was a great worshipper of jackson. so it should not surprise that when the time came when suction secession is, he decided to stand with the union. jackson was also a committed unionist. when he got into his tiff with calhoun about this, he made the speech the union forever. the union was

that's what put him in opposition with jefferson davis. it's like why you give this land a way to these people one of the work for like everybody else. or have a famous family where you could just grab land. but the point was but he was in all measures and understanding person about the nature of poverty. and the nature of class in america. he just could not get past the racial question. he believed in the inferiority of blacks. he believed that because of that, that they should either you know he basically said i don't care where they go. they could be emancipated, but they are not going to have rights, not the same kind of writes that white men would have. so that figured and said any he said openly, but the united states should be a white man's government. this was not an unusual thing, he was a jackson ian, he began his career as a young man, he was a great worshipper of jackson, so it should not surprise you that when the time came, that when there was a secession, that he decided to stand with the union. because if you remember jacks

that's what put him in opposition opposition to jefferson davis. we are giving this land a way to these poor people. you have a famous family. he was, in all measures, and understanding person about the nature of poverty. and the nature of class, in america. he just could not get past the racial question. he believed -- in the inferiority of blacks. and, because of that, ... he basically said i don't care where they go. they can be emancipated, but they are not going to have rights, the same kind of writes that white men would have. he figured, and said ... very openly, that the united states should be a white man's government. and, this was not an unusual thing. he was a jack sony, and he began his career as a young man ... was a great warship or of jack jackson. doesn't surprise, it should not surprise that when the time came, when there was secession, he decided to stay with the union. because, if you remember, jackson was a slave holder. but jackson, was also a committed unionist. and, when he got into -- it was bigger than that. with calhoun,

quarterbacked by jefferson davis, due to robert e. lee.do you think that had that operation, as sufficient as it was, intended to kill andrew johnson, that he would have survived? >> i talk a little bit about this in the book. i don't know. i mean, it's too far off, and i don't know enough about that to make a claim about the notion that -- the suggestion is that the johnsons may have been in on this. he was targeted, but he really wasn't targeted. i don't know. >> johnson lost being impeached or convicted by one vote, and they tried to convict him as i understand it because they passed that law saying that the senate could have a say in who his cabinet was. >> mm-hmm. >> and wasn't that considered unconstitutional? >> later, it was. >> okay. >> but it was awhile. it was the law at the time. >> but it didn't have anything to do with his loss by his acquittal by one vote? >> no. >> okay. thank you. >> only in the sense that people thought it was a bad idea later on. >> i'm not sure that i'm going to see this -- >> oh, go ahead. >> i want to

in some ways, he is reminiscent of joe johnson not wanting to communicate with jefferson davis. he keeps his plans to himself. he blows hot and cold on the president. in december of 1861, mcclellan is wary of talking to anyone. there had been too many leaks to the administration including a premature release of simon cameron's report. experts from lincoln's and wills message that appear to, the new york times, had published a map of union positions in virginia. so mcclellan has some reasons to be concerned about leaks, but in the meantime, the country is increasingly impatient. fall has gone, by the army is not taken, except for a little, in december of 1861, congress chris the joint committee on the conduct of the war. whose members knew very little about military matters but thought they did. and they sought out generals with more conservative political views. the timing here was very bad for george b mcclellan mcclelland, because by december 23, mcclellan is ill with typhoid fever, which was a great killer at the time. fortunately, mcclellan didn't have a terrible case of the

there was a counter inaugural journey by jefferson davis. and do we have any record of whether he i mean you've poured through all of the newspapers much more than i ever did small town papers and such. are there references in northern papers about this? other inaugural journey yes, there are. what i really wanted to get i i failed to get which were the words of speeches jefferson davis was giving it's really hard to get those. yeah, but the the telegraph was sending the reports that you know, he's he's in northern alabama tonight. or he's going to be in atlanta tomorrow night. so they knew where he was and they did get the words of his inaugural address in in montgomery. but yeah, i was fascinated by that that story you have it in lincoln president-elect two, but even the nature of that train trip was interesting and and revealed. to my way of looking at it a lot of the bankruptcy of the confederacy that you know i don't want to offend any trump admirers on this call, but it resembled the situation in some ways resembles the situation now t

prevent the leadership of the south from suddenly just slipping back into politics after all jefferson davis who was a president of the confederacy had been a well known and powerful senator from mississippi before the civil war so the 14th . amendment was designed to keep that leadership from some plea slipping back into the congress and it said explicitly that any american risk who is held. proven to have promoted sedition in any way. is not eligible to run for public office well the the cameras recorded trumps gesture on that morning that if that wasn't an invalid invitation to the mob to storm the congress i don't know what it was so i think the 14th amendment which critically does not require a 2 thirds majority but a simple majority to convict someone of violating that amendment the democrats could have invoked that and simply taken trump out of the equation as a potential candidate in 2024 now i question whether or not trump will run in 2024 there are no 2nd acts in american politics but on the other hand or in american life but on the other hand trump has defied all conventional thin

after acquitted president johnson use that power to pardon jefferson davis.nd then i get emotional. talk about reconstruction in the united states. because i think we as a people especially people of color we have a heavy burden because they did not face the truth of the civil war and then to sweep it under the carpet and i believe the amnesty for jefferson davis help to create that burden. and that was a pardon at the end of his term. and to tell you in january that we might see some pardons of the insurrection. i spent today talking about nixon because i know nixon but we have evidence with a shared body of data. but we can actually all listen. and then with the trump era and with that public information there's a lot more to learn. i have a feeling the second impeachment actually deterred president trump from perhaps, perhaps pardoning. i don't have evidence and i don't want to make the claim he would have. but itev will one - - a question of a mask ring as a historian. yes having the power to pardon the insurrectionist as professor blackman would know , t

mcconnell is going to be remembered as the equivalent of a minority leader in the senate who embraced jefferson davisby the leader of the united states putting self-interest, political party above the country in a way such as we have not seen who was someone believed by his colleagues. the idea that the evil, the evil that mitch mcconnell pointed out on the floor only a few weeks ago that he turned tail and ran is something to the whole. >> we have been in a cold civil war for a good long time. donald trump poured the flames on that cold civil war and ignited and now the republicans and the senate have said we are going to have ignited civil war of some sort in this country, transcends politics and it is cultural and has to do with racism and the character and cult of donald trump and these senators throwing away principles have said all right, we are going once again to go our cowardly way and embrace trumpism, an evil force. i said about more than 21 republican senators despise donald trump. these republican senators have no spines whatsoever and they endangered the country and our future. we are g

after she was acquitted, president johnson use the pardon power to pardon jefferson davis. it is very hard for me, i get emotional talking about reconstruction in the united states. i think we as a people and especially people of color, but we as a people very heavy burden because our country did not face the truth of the civil war and then swept it under the carpet. i believe the amnesty for jefferson davis help to create that burden and that was a pardon by president at the end of his term. i worried, i have to tell you in january, that we might see some pardons of the insurrectionists. talking about nixon because not just i know about nixon, we have evidence, we have a shared body of data and all of you -- we can actually all listen, it is there. we do not yet have, but i want to have it, a shared body of data about the trump era. we have a lot of public information but there's a lot more to learn. i have a feeling that the second impeachment may have actually deterred president trump from perhaps, pardoning some insurrectionists. i do not have evidence and i do not want

jefferson davis ahead of the confederacy and he was convicted and sentenced, as if the leader of the political party says oh, the hell with it, there is a technicality that i can let you walk off. this is a statement by leader mcconnell as to what he wants his party to be and that includes the trump's colt. he wants them under his wing and he banish those people and he yet embraced them yet again and embrace trump throw the four years of his presidency. >> it was shocking to hear mitch mcconnell's words and he tried to have it both ways to say after those votes if trump were still president. a lot of republicans tried to hide behind this argument that it was unconstitutional to have a trial to convict a former president. how do you think history will remember republicans like senator mcconnell. >> history does not look kindly. today the question was are you on the side of the constitution or are you on the side of those patriotic to prevent a constitutional count. seven republicans realized that their party gone astray. mitch mcconnell was unwilling to remove his caucus and embrace t

mcconnell is going to be remembered as the equivalent of a minority leader in the senate who embraced jefferson daviscessionist. this is an act by a leader of the senate of the united states putting self-interest, political party interest above the country in a way sauuch as we have not seen who is believed by his colleagues for a while to at least have some figure leaf of responsibility to the nation. that is gone now. the idea that the evil, the evil that mitch mcconnell pointed out on the floor of the senate only a few weeks ago, that he turned tail and ran, is something to behold. look, we have been in a cold civil war for a good long time in this country. donald trump poured the flames on that cold civil war and ignited it. and now the republicans in the senate have said, we are going to have an ignited civil war of some sort in this country. it transcends politics. it's culture. it has to do with racism. it has to do with misogyny. it has to do with the character and cult of donald trump, and these senators throwing away principle have said all right, we are going once again to go our craven co

so we didn't know until they changed the name that it was named after jefferson davis, the president of the confederacy right through the heart of the african-american community. but, in reality, i guess it made sense because african-americans didn't come into this community until after the war. it was close to the other parts of town where they were working. they could walk to work and walk back home. we're at the franklin primary health care center. that's the namesake for dr. james franklin. and dr. franklin actually grew up in tennessee. he went to school at lincoln university. and then he attended the university of michigan in 1909. upon arrival, he had to sleep in the boiler room which is where the air-conditioning and heating equipment was. he took his trunk and that was his desk with a night lamp and he slept on a cot for four years. finished second in his medical class. dr. franklin was our grandfather. so he comes back to alabama and starts practicing medicine in evergreen. and if i had known i had been doing this, i would be asking him a lot of questions. i had no idea we

and i believe the amnesty or jefferson davis helped to create that burden. and that was, that was a pardon by a president at the end of his term. i worried, i have to tell you, in january that we might see some pardons of the insurrectionists. i spent today talking about nixon because, not just because i know -- i know nixon -- that we have evidence, we have shared body of data, and all of you, i know you are busy people, and you should be, we can actually all listen. it's there. we don't yet have, but i want us to have come a shared body of data about the trump -- we have a lot of public information but there's a lot more to learn. i have a feeling that the second impeachment, ms. jackson lee, may have actually deterred president trump from perhaps, perhaps pardoning some insurrectionists. i don't have evidence added a want to make the claim that he would have come but it is a question i will be asking as a historian. so yes, presidents have had the power to pardon insurrectionists. indeed, as professor blackman would certainly no, i am mentioning him becau

jefferson davis should have been hung.athan bedford ford should have been hung for war crimes and treason. the south should have been watched over as far as the reconstruction and the south should never have been allowed to rise again, something they are doing again. host: i think you are the first so far that reaches back in history for fdr, for abraham lincoln, for andrew johnson. do you think that before one can bestow that title or check that box of best were worst presidents you do have to have a number of years or decades go by? caller: absolutely right. for the here and now, what we are seeing here and now, trump is the first president to get the confederate flag in our capitol. jefferson davis tried to get in. but he is the first and his followers. if they want civil war, we have plenty of -- but -- host: they are doing the same topic 50 years from now. where does donald trump rate in the best and worst? you had andrew johnson as your worst. caller: i would put nixon as far as the worst for his treason and war crim

so we didn't know until they change the name that it was named after just jefferson davis, the president of the confederacy, right through the heart of the african american community. but, in reality, i guess it made sense because african americans didn't come into the community until after the war, because it was close to the other parts of the town where they were working and they could walk to work and walk back home. we are at the franklin primary health care center. the name sake for dr. james franklin. doctor franklin, actually grew up in tennessee. he went to school at lincoln university. then he went to the university of michigan in 1909. and upon arrival he had to sleep in the ballroom. and he took his trunk, and that was his desk with a night lamp, and he slept on top of it for four years. he came in second in his medical class. doctor franklin was my maternal grandfather. he comes back to alabama and starts practicing medicine, and if i had known i've been doing this, i would've asking hate him a lot of questions. i had no idea would be doing this trail today. and first of all

jefferson davis has already been inaugurated president of the confederate states of america and lincolnefore, a one-term congressman from a new party and proceeds to present the poetry of democracy, making the case that we are not enemies. we are friends. we must be friends. and he proceeds to make a case for why secession shouldn't occur. i didn't succeed because the logic of polarization was already accelerating to where violence was inevitable. >> we look at lincoln now, his greatness is a given. as he was trying to hold the country together, lincoln was criticized not just by the south but some republicans in the north as well. why was lincoln personally so unpopular among some of his fellow republicans? >> there was vicious criticism. the famous term team of rivals applies. he had a cabinet full of people who saw themselves at least equal if not his superiors. lincoln had a deep self-confidence and he knew that he could harness people for their strengths. but he was called everything from weak to a tyrant. it's hard to be both. but that was the volume of attacks and criticism. he w

because of jefferson davis saying are you going to take the liberty cap off and then by the time the statue was put on top of the dome, slavery was abolished. nice ironies. and i realize people spotted this before me and i think that, if i was to be able to, if i had done more research and give you a fuller answer that is the beginning moment. that is the antic dote to begin that story and one to do with kind of layers of irony and those stretch all the way up to the present day to there's an article that i very quickly looked at and thought, no, i can't get sucked down into this rabbit hole here to do with african-american responses to the capitol building. and it was the responses were not recent. i think it was the 1980s, early 1990s which somebody had interviewed people coming out to the building and they're saying, yeah, i guess this isn't really about our history. we're not really in there much. okay, well, but then you go all the way back to the head dress on the top and the feathers and the cap and that kind of opens up a whole other story that i thought was really interestin

the other thing, joy, is today is a historic anniversary. 160 years ago today, jefferson davis was chosen against the united states to preserve slavery. we fought a tragic civil war. in 1865, we won, and davis was imprisoned briefly, but he was never held to account in the courts. a few years later, davis was telling the public, i wasn't conquered by the north. the south was never conquered. we were cheated of the victory that was ours. what does that sound like? that's what happens when congress does not draw the line against what a president does. >> that is wild. wow. i mean have we ever had -- you know, you are our expert here on this. have we ever had a president essentially threaten the life of his own vice president, ever? >> never. never anything remotely like this. we've never had a president, when there's this kind of violence, especially against the congress, against the capitol of the united states, who basically sits on his hands and won't let the national guard come, won't do everything he can to put down this violence and calm things down. any other person -- we've got some

lee or jefferson davis and hang them. we did not indulge in that type of public vindictiveness. it is well that we didn't because what that might have generated would have been an ongoing sea of insurgencies. that would've made the civil war look like some sort of prelude. think what might have happened if for instance after up an attucks, if lee had not been given the terms that he asked for not some death camp the parole if liu been offered anything but that, he could've easily with one returned was army and said, boys had for the hills and fight it out there. that could have dragged on reconstruction for decades. we might still be fighting insurgencies. and there were insurgencies of that sort that you can see in a destructive way, in places for instance in the 19th century and the russian caucuses. those kind of long term insurgencies could've destroyed this country. so yes, we paid a price, we paid a price for race riots in new orleans in 1966. we paid a price for the ku klux klan. at least we did not pay a worst price. and we could have. we could be at war, we could be at

lee or jefferson davis and hang them. we did not indulge in that kind of public vindictiveness. it is well that we didn't because what that might have generated would have been an ongoing sea of insurgencies. that would have made the civil war look like simply a prelude. think, think what might have happened if, for instance, after appomattox if lee had not been given the terms he had been given, that of parole, not some death march to prison camps, not treason trials but parole. if lee had been offered anything by that, he could have easily with one word have turned to his army and said, boys, head for the hills and fight it out there. and that could have dragged out reconstruction for decades. we might still be fighting insurgencies, and there were insurgenies of that sort that you can see in a destructive way, in places, for instance, in the 19th century in the russian caucuses. those kinds of long-term insurgencies could have destroyed this country. so yes, we paid a price. we paid a price in race riots in new orleans and memphis in 1866. we paid a price with the ku klux kla

particularly confederate leaders generals people like jefferson davis? why would we ever welcome those people back into full citizenship including voting rights? so he's commenting on the pardon policy under johnson. when we have not welcomed to full citizenship, which means voting rights black veterans and so shall i trust these men and has the confederate leadership coming to lady liberty and asking for forgiveness and then the the companion panel on the other side of harper's weekly showed her gesturing 2 standing next to her a black veteran who had lost a leg and in the image is the ballot box, which the mhs has featured as one of the core components of cartoon representations of voting and that is a good example of nest's view of voting as central to citizenship from his point of view. you could not be equal within the united states if you are not free to vote and so he repeatedly created cartoons in which the right to vote was the right to be an american. so the second one which i think we see here in some ways and then i'll come back to this in a

jefferson davis should have been hung.athan bedford ford should have been hung for war crimes and treason. the south should have been watched over as far as the reconstruction and the south should never have been allowed to rise again, something they are doing again. host: i think you are the first so far that reaches back in history for fdr, for abraham lincoln, for andrew johnson. do you think that before one can bestow that title or check that box of best were worst presidents you do have to have a number of years or decades go by? caller: absolutely right. for the here and now, what we are seeing here and now, trump is the first president to get the confederate flag in our capitol. jefferson davis tried to get in. but he is the first and his followers. if they want civil war, we have plenty of -- but -- host: they are doing the same topic 50 years from now. where does donald trump rate in the best and worst? you had andrew johnson as your worst. caller: i would put nixon as far as the worst for his treason and war crim

but i also realize that the jefferson davis is saying in 1862, which is a response to the preliminary emancipation proclamation, and the anticipation of the mastication -- being passed in january of 1863, that black soldiers are affected and how to deal with them, while i think it just ugly, next year given a diesel and you have to be delivered to state authorities. according to the laws of the states, for sure, which were definitely entailed perhaps court processes, unfair court process he's, as well as execution but also this requires essentially keeping these men alive, in order to deliver them to the one place from battlefield to executive authority of the state. so something to consider and i started polling on the threat once i was thinking about this. okay, what was going on with these men? but as i went through the official records, i kept finding these really interesting details. and i found, out of more than 120 volumes of course boarded, four instances of the testimony from blackmon themselves. two from lac sales from new york, and two were from black sergeants who had been

february 1862 the senate votes with the indiana senator imparts because of his relationship with jefferson davis has a letter of introduction. in sumner is the one who leads the charge and says the senate should expel traders -- traitors. i thought about that and what he would have thought about the confederate flag being waived in front of him. the senate cannot have traitors. prof. freeman: the other thing about sumner is, he's out of congress for a while after the caning. he comes back and he is a riproaring speech, and a big part of that is a whole chunk of that speech which is about the barbaric slaveholders and congress. violence happening in the capitol. that is such a sign of what the south is contain so much. prof. alexander: it may be naÏve, but in the midst of the national conversation we have had, i could not believe -- prof. widmer: it may be naÏve, but in the midst of the national conversation we have had, i could not believe there was a painting of calhoun hanging in the capitol. >> i deplored the events of wednesday. i want to make that clear. but there is a long tradition in mas

in june, protesters in richmond knocked over a statue of jefferson davis, the president of the confederacya defender of slavery. soon after the mississippi state legislature voted to remove the confederate flag emblem from the state's flag. the new design debuted earlier this year. and in december, a statue of confederate general robert e. lee was removed from the u.s. capitol. all that very interesting. virginia apparently led the way with the number of symbols that were removed -- 71 in all last year. the southern poverty law center calls all of this transformative, but notes that more than 2,100 symbols of the confederacy remain throughout the country. >> that's very interesting. >> more work to do. >> yeah. but a lot of progress. >> a lot of progress. you're right about that. let's celebrate that. >>> mine is about a good guy. one man's good deed turned into a very emotional moment for a woman in florida. so the man went to her home to return her wallet. it was caught, of course, on doorbell cam video. >> hey, how you doing? i found your wallet at walmart. ms. crosby? i found your wall

just this past month, you saw that street sign, that used to be jefferson davis parkway.cided it should be norman c. francis parkway. >> love it. thank you. >>> up next, senator ben sasse of nebraska clarifies what a conservative is and is not after republicans in his homestate advanced a measure to have him censured. plus qanon congresswoman majorie taylor greene tried to clean up her past remarks just before the house voted to pull her committee assignments. we'll tell you what happened when "morning joe" comes back in just 30 seconds. eeper for peace of mind. your books are all set. so you can finally give john some attention. trusted experts. guaranteed accurate books. intuit quickbooks live. ♪ ♪ charlotte! charl! every day can be extraordinary with rich, creamy, delicious fage total yogurt. >>> along with joe, willie and me, we have pulitzer prize winning columnist hugh gene robinson. host of "way too early" kasie hunt. and senior political correspondent for the washington examiner, david drucker. we have a lot of stories to get to this friday morning. former preside

suggest to a historical anniversary today, the 9th of february, 2021, exactly 160 years ago today, jefferson davisely after a tragic civil war, davis went to prison. >> wow. >> so michael, the sort of the defensive theories that have popped up among some defenders of the former president are some doozy. take a listen to how lindsey graham is trying to portray this these days. he seemed to indicate that somehow all former presidents could be impeached. take a listen. >> when you combine a snap impeachment with an impeachment of a president who is out of office, you're going to destroy the presidency itself. they never envisioned going after a president once he's out of office because the purpose of impeachment is to remove the person, not bar them from running in the future. george washington under this theory could be impeached for owning slaves. >> look, lindsey graham has his facts wrong. he was impeached as sitting president of the united states and this is something that continues to be -- it's a very effective misinformation campaign that they're participating in. but it does seem as if repub