u. s. u k funds, germany. and that's korea. yeah. and so they're big weapons vendors. and of course, those countries are the ones that weapons are in the countries or deployed and used in the countries which are make the countries with the, with the least amount of piece to be an exact balance there. well, certainly the supply of the industry is the not good the list which gets out in the country between conflict, obviously the place at bay. and there are certainly many proxy wars which i get right in different parts of the world. but certainly one of the driving factors in the last 5 years, it was know, in the last 7 years, it's been the rise of bias. that's why it moved through syria, through what you get, i rock and dave, so certainly that you do need weapons to part to the toxic right chain slot. that if we're looking over into a whole reach mom and we can see arise that elements with isis there. so again, i think certainly having a better regulations around a weapon. so i think so really, really important. that's really but that's the responsibility of thing. you went out has to be out of it, right. but i mean, but the scale of the subs, region and so on is far less than i don't know, the opioid crisis is what half a 1000000 dead between 992019. the venezuelan government says 40000 dead because of sanctions by countries like britain in the united states. do you think you can factor in in your next report? venezuela? now claiming that the kovacs broberg program is being weaponized to prevent life saving vaccines for a country like venezuela. quite this stage we can see including a lack of vaccine. so the, val, it's the on availability back saying it's being part of the global pace index. again comes back to the data and i keep saying the data which you can get to do the index is limited limited availabilities and i great 100 percent with you the death 3 way health issues a bat. and sort of particularly when this lack of food, but the lack of food chain is very, very complicated. matter and conflict can fall into it in different ways. but there are a whole range of other things which can just come down to simply incompetence within the gum. see korea, thank you. great, thank you. joy bang on after the break, after germany agrees to return, there been bronzes looted from what is known agirri by british troops. we look at what the british refusal to do the same says about its approach to racial justice, imperialism, and was in the name of capital awesome. all coming up and part of going on the grant. ah, the ah, ah, always be polite, never engage with an aggravated or confrontational office. don't get into any conversation to start answering questions. just ask for an attorney. to survive in interrogation. you've gotta be ready. you're definitely don't want to be going to trial in a jump. so one cups, you're more likely to walk free. if you're rich and guilty when you are, if you're poor and you got 2 eyes and 2 ears and one mouth. so you should be seen in here and a whole lot more than you're saying if you don't take that advice, usually going to date yourself a whole welcome back and well, when we heard about the decade deteriorating peace in the world with can anything really change of nations responsible for centuries of bloodshed refuse to reckon with their crimes. is one of the questions of the center of a debate around the benito bronze is artifacts looted by the british from what is now and jerry in the wake of a brutal invasion. so while germany has agreed to return its bronze is, what does it say about that? you can, the us that they have so far shown, no signs of really doing the same. joining me from london as bobby phillips, former bbc nigeria correspondent, and the author of lute britain and the benign bronzes. thanks so much fun to me for coming on. obviously, statues of racist and slave trade is coming down across the britain. tell me how the been bronzes, links you can colonialism militarism, the economics, let alone the global fight for justice against relates. i think the ben in bronze is, had become emblematic around the high in the charged argument over colonial due to doc, which is being played out in britain, in europe and in the united states. and there are probably, i would argue to reasons for this. the 1st is that they are really spectacular works and there are so many of them thousands of them. and they are very prominent in the great museums of europe and the united states that in the met there in the british museum, that ring bell in there, in the movie a k, bradley and parish, and so on. and i think the other reason is the way in which they were taken in $1897.00, which is right towards the end of the period that we call the scramble for africa. the initial territorial grabbed of africa is just not that long ago. and it is perhaps, as a consequence of that very well documented from the british side, the ref, letters their journals, there are photographs. and so the story, at least from the british point of view, is very intact. it's staring us in the face if you care to look for it. i want to get to the bloodshed in a 2nd. but given that you are a long standing journalist, you covered cover in the book about i think the sort of orientalist hedge a monic power that went on in 1897 about the journalist reaction to the exhibition in the 897. i mean, they were all baffled, even those that seem to be anti colonial. are going well this copy, black african. that's right. the been in bronze is go on display in september of 897. they, they've been looted in february of 1897 from benning. and that 1st great exhibition takes place in the british museum in september and it causes a sensation. you're right. the words which the journalists use are baffled. remarkable amaze because what they are feeling challenges at that conceptions that prejudices and not just the justice class sections, but the prejudices of, of late victorian england, of course, because they are seeing works of extraordinary beauty. and they are likened to ancient greece. they likened to the finest works of the italian relations, and yet of course, africa is meant to be a place of barbarism and a place of savagery. and indeed, bending in particular has been portrayed as a very right bart grade. barbaric place during the british military invasion, some 6 or 7 months earlier. the other thing, of course, is that africa is meant to be a place without history. and yet here, all these been guns, blacks, you can see fabulously details or trails of early portuguese explorers soldiers, sailors in alma, from the 15th century, which means that they are themselves almost hundreds of years. and of course, points to what is that i guess or contract for the british $997.00, which is that the bending kingdom has enjoyed a peaceful relationship with successive waves of european explorers and traders, including british traders, portuguese dutch, french for some 400 years and here john, this can see that the time saturday was june, the teen celebrating a form of freedom in texas. that was granted how important is the link between these bronzes and the genocidal slave trade? it's a complex connection between, between the slave trade and the band in bronzes. the, the bending kingdom remains a powerful kingdom throughout the period of the trans atlantic slave trade. and to some extent, it is on the periphery of the slave trade. it's true that at its height bending does supply thousands of slaves for the dutch, for the british, for the portuguese. but it doesn't get far been to the extent that other kingdoms do say on what was called the gold coast and the slave coast and so on. often, in fact, the commodity that is most prized in bending is ivory and that is something which the dutch in particular take out of bending in huge quantities later. of course, in the mid 900 century onwards, the british having been enthusiastic proponents of the slave trade have become zealous in trying to stamp it out. and this is used as one of the arguments for food for ending that means independence and for the invasion, which is from the british point of view, a desire to end the slave trade and to end what they're calling the bar practice of human sacrifice. i'll get to humans back to humans in a 2nd, but you are and the elephant protection initiative. after all, you just mentioned the ivory. what is the scale of killing of elephant? what was the scan of this commodities trading? the scale is astonishing. the situation in the area for elephants today, it is probably the might be about $400.00, maybe 30 in a small forest left near bending. but when you see what successive european powers took out of bending for hundreds and hundreds of years, a single dutch ship that was sailing down the bending river to amsterdam in the 18th century, had more ivory on it, probably much more ivory than there are elephants in nigeria today and this would have been a journey replicated thousands of times. the great west african hides were destroyed primarily by european demand over hundreds of years between the 15th and 1900 century. we're going to make it clear that when we talk about benito, we're not talking about the country of been in this is in jerry or if anyone's watching and confused used to go to an atlas. why do you think it is? then when you went to school, certainly when i went to school, none of this story was there about i mean, not even really the transit, i think, slave trade, let alone the great civilizations of africa. i feel an important part of why our understanding has changed on the, on issues of, of colonial art. but i guess on the slave trade as well is, is the composition of all societies. and if you look at the kinds of crowds that are milling the streets around, bloomsbury around the british museum in the center of london, they are very, very different to the sorts of crowds it will be walking through london in the 1940s or fifties, let alone the 18 nineties and so in situations like the british museum, you will have to phase where i was. i saw him. so he much more recently. i mean, this gets get on to when i did i, we've kind of shocked me that, you know, we've had liberal interventionism libya, af, canister, syria. and you talk about one of the most famous oriental is seen as an anti colonial person. richard burton and others who ironically prepares the way for thee should i call it savage, british empire, a destruction of society in beneath niger. richard burton had an extraordinary career and one of his last name roles is that he's, he's a console on the, on the island of fernando po, which is, which is today equitorial guinea. and so he has a responsibility for that knowledge of delta coast. just at the time when british control is starting and you're right, he makes a trip to bending at that time some 30 years before the invasion by the british. i mean, he helps implant an image of bending which is dug up very successfully some 35 years later by the british, which is the bending is a place of sovereignty. it is a, it is a degenerate civilization. is it a place that has decayed that may have been great in the past? and i think that that lays the foundations for the justification of what happens later. absolutely. the big story, i mean we have jeffrey robinson qsc about his book of the organ. marbles is, of course, whether the british museum should return them. the british museum says it has an excellent long term working relationship with the jury and colleagues and so on. why do you think britain is refusing to return? some of the particular bidding bronze is located in the collection in bloomsbury. the 1st option is, as you know, different institutions in britain that have different rules. are the rob, small, university museums, local authority, museums, and so on. which is saying, actually they're quite open to the idea of returning that ben bronze is the british news in like any big institution, it is full of people who don't necessarily agree with each other. and perhaps if i went into this project, thinking of the british museum as a, you know, a large, an arrow going monolithic establishment that never changed. i think i've come away with a slightly more nuanced image of, of an institution that doesn't, that, that is divided that particularly right now at the time of the pandemic fields on the back foot, financially reluctant to take on the british government. and of course, remember the political context, the british museum, is constrained by something called an act of 1963, which makes it impossible for it to hand over to d, accession for ever. objects needs collections without a change in the law. now, of course, laws can change them and to change along with morality and ethics and laws have changed over national law collections over not see looted. are they changed over human body parts? indeed, so the british museum can get, can disposal or hand over those items. and so, you know, in theory they could be putting pressure on the government to change the museum act of $963.00. but if you look at this conservative government, we've got in the u. k. at the moment with the secure majority in parliament. i don't think that changing the museum act so that national collections can be de accessions and returned to countries like nigeria is part of its cultural agenda. very quickly. the range of the book is so big, so, so new on 7, you talk about the british drug dealing in china and where mary ross and one is words in the royal navy g. do you think that beneath massacre which might have come up in history books in the 900 eighty's when the british soldiers were killed? is kind of that generations saddam's incubator in saddam hussein's w m. d. the. these kinds of captures of material and regime change and so needs a massacre to catalyze it. to be honest, this is what is so fascinating about passing it is you can read it still 125 years later in lots of different ways. vice council james phillips, a man to, i'm not related by the way, is killed on route to been in city with 6 of the british officials and traders, and indeed hundreds
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