to write a lot about hitler's life but the more research i did the more clear it became that almost from the time that they were little warburg and hitler were on a collision course and they do collide in the 1940s and will talk about that. both stories are being wrapped around cancer and the reason the relatively rare disease in the early 19th century and warburg and hitler are born in 1880s and by then cancer is becoming more and more common and over the next decade and becomes of the german people and panic emerges. this is the environment that they grew upp in, hitler is a disgruntled teenager, his father died when he was 13 and it's kind of nobody really likes him, the only connection that he has in the world is his mother and she was only human being he was capable of loving. right att t the time when hitles trying and failing to become an artist his mother diagnosed wito breast cancer and he's absolutely shaken. his one friend at the time says he never seen nobody look so depressed in one of the extraordinary things a jewish doctor in austria who is caring and a jewish doctor

so let's now talk about hitler's youth tied into his mom. >> sure. when i started to write this book i didn't plan to write a lot abouthitler's life but the more research i did , the more clear it became that almost from the time they were little, warburg and hitler were on a collision course that sure enough they did collide in the 1940s and we will talk about but both stories are wrapped around history and the reason in large part is that cancer had been a relatively rare disease in the early 1960s and warburg and hitler are both born in 1880s and by then cancer is becoming more and more common and over the next decade it becomes really a preoccupation of the german people , a cancer panic emerges so this is the world they both grew up in. hitler is sort of a disgruntled teenager and his afather dies when he's 13 if i recall correctly and he wants to be an artist but is kind of a hapless figure, nobody really likes him and the only connection he has in the world is hismother . she's the only human being he was capable of loving . so right time when

mother and hitler actually very grateful to have a good relationship with a stopper. everything but his mother is dying of breast cancer. and nothing can really be done hitler's just alarmed the devastated and the doctor also had never seen like a human being that was so depressed. and so she of breast cancer and cancer remains threat through the end of his life in central focus coming season extreme hypochondriac to free to more so than cancer read a story that is just one after another one point, everything that is doing things right out of will because he's sure he will die of cancer. is a horrible stomach cramps and all sorts of conditions that it was a simple answer. are the chilling aspect is he said multiple different times that one of the reasons he was such a hurry to do all of these horrible things that he wants to do is because his way to do so no cancer. his gotta take care of business before he dies. two stories are really bizarre. demanded an obsession with shellfish which somewhat speculative that the crab and cancer some people thought that even that w

he said i was here before hitler, nobody will take me out of here.harassed again and again in the early 30s, why aren't you sending our researchers to the marches and stuff? why aren't you usingng the hitlr salute? why do not have the flag up? he chases him out and screamed and gets away with it and he almost doesn't but they tolerated him ultimately because he was an important scientist in the early years he had all of us, the b early 30s to some extent they still cared about his reputation so he had advantages when he was only half jewish, his father was jewish and his mother wasn't. so there was a lot going on but nobody should have been more vulnerable. not only jewish father but living with his male partner, he had the nazis could have got rid of him at any time. they put up with him what harassed him but i don't chase him out. meanwhile by the late 30s, they are gone and it's too late for him to leave. things are closing in on him and finally, they have the society now and he's running, they're working for him and he's running it like a dictato

that they had had the burden alone of resisting hitler in 19401941 of hitler. while russia was hitler's ally. in the united states was still neutral and headedd seemed terribly unfair but that was the way it was. and the other thing that i've really stressed the whole of my life since my childhood pretty getting away from some of the stupid ideas. my father and my uncles and cousins all somehow all the men in my family have enjoyed the experience is of the war, my great uncle, he made his first parachute jump at the age of 61. in my father had been the sort of thing as well and very famous magazine which was the equivalent of a life magazine in britain. enjoy the work and special on the military and they spent most of my childhood telling stories to each other about what kind it was my mother would say towh me, don't listeno them. your father and uncle lewis talk about the war and ghastly. and of course war is ghastly. in the united states had privilege in second world war invaded but britain as well had a pretty privileged war appeared in the russians occupied

a jewish doctor that is caring for hitler's mother and hitler is actually very grateful. his mother is dying of breast cancer and hitler is just devastatedd. it's to the very end of his life a central focus but not any more so than cancer. he had these horrible stomach cramps and all sorts of conditions he always assumed were cancer. part of the chilling aspect he says multiple different times one of the reasons he's in such a hurry to do these horrible things he wants to do he's got to take care of business before he dies. the stories are really bizarre. he even had an obsession with shellfish, which some historians think isb a word for cancer. evidently his mother died a painful death that he witnessed and the will you talked about, didn't he stop everything manning he was about to launch a big battle and he stopped to doa this? wasn't this done during wartime? >> and the will it self was at period but, yes, i can talk about that as well. i can talk about that more now as it comes a little more in the progression. >> what do you think is it more family? >> that comes up

is it true that hitler's snub jesse owens and refused to shake his hand. is that a myth or is it real? it's yes and no it is certainly true that that hitler did not shake jesse owens hand what had happened was that? during the first day of competition hitler had had went down and greeted and shook the hands of of german athletes who won medals the international olympic committee went to him and said if you're gonna shake the hands of german athletes, we would like you to shake the hands of every athlete who wins a meadow and hitler decided that they're moving forward. he wouldn't shake the hands of any of the athletes. and just the owens took advantage of this moment when he came back to the us. he didn't have a lot of opportunities to capitalize on his athletic success, but one this story began to circulate that hitler had snubbed just the owens and jesse owens used it for his his benefit and he began to give lectures and dinners and things like that and that was often one of the most the most requested stories about how he had been snubbed by jesse owens

franco gave hitler -- he set up a token division to fight russia against the communists.now, i personally believe there is a scenario. my favorite historian says don't waste your time on counterfactual. but i do think that in 1941 you could construct a scenario that instead of invading russia shah, hitler could have prevailed in the mediterranean. he could are have seized gibraltar from spain. cairo. british could have seen and didn't like churchill that just tried to depose churchill and tried to make the best they could. i think if spain had come in and germany and even delayed his invasion of russia by a few months or a year, i think one can see things looking much more difficult for the western allies. but fortunately it didn't turn out that way. >> that speaks to your recent book, the battle to malta, doesn't it? >> yeah. what i'm trying to do, now that i reached the advanced age of 75. i'm a bit reluctant now to do more huge blockbuster books like vietnam or catastrophe. instead i'm trying to look at specific episodes which one can talk about why those things and i

while russia was hitler's ally in the united states is still neutral, it seemed unfair but that is the way it was in the other thing i spent my life since my child and getting away of the stupid ideas as i was a kid when my father and uncles and cousins somehow all the men in her family managed to enjoy the experience is of the work my great uncle has made his first peers to jump at the agency and my father had done that and he was a war correspondent to a famous magazine which is equivalent to life magazine in britain. he managed to enjoy the work and my cousin with sss was a military cross they spent most of my job telling stories to each other and it was my mother who would say to me don't listen to the stories of your father and uncle louie when they talk about the war from beginning to end. war is costly was second world war the united states had a relative privilege second world war which is invaded but they were pretty privileged war compared to the russians or occupied europe, i think another thing in particular when i started writing about wars i thought it was all about soldi

it's anti- hitler.and a number of the officers and others regard themselves as traditional german army officers first and perhaps not see second there were more like fellow travelers than ideological nasis. but the not see party had gone from the beginning the penetration and some of the agents that was obliged to run in the united states. all of the agents were members of that not see party. [inaudible] was in agent for example was a very, very nasty and tight semite. he was maneuvering and successfully getting help from the authorities to get out of property owned by family in germany, that was a surname. he managed to get their property x appropriated and then he goes into eight gynecological practice it was found by jews. he published anti-semitic pamphlets, he had a black list of jews of newark he was quite an important spy in new york he actually helped him to escape and after that he was quite a leading figure in new york. this was heartfelt. see what i believe there's quite a lot of questions i

i think in 1938 they were desperate to avoid war but they thought you can negotiate that in 1939 hitler'sehavior was such that everybody with half a brain could see that this guy was somebody who cannot negotiate only be dealt with by force of arms. host: what is neville chamberlain's reputation today in great britain? >> it's pretty low those who signed away czechoslovakia that it was a very impressive prime minister or leader but the leaders can only go as fast as their nations will allow them to an roosevelt understood this thoroughly between 1939 and 41 there was church all the way through attempting to drag the united states into war. and franklin roosevelt was desperately anxious that the we should not lose the war but new he hade to carry the american people with him and knew that he could in a declaration of war but in the same way i have argued in my own book that churchill was lucky until late 1940 because he could shuffle the blame up to the battlefield including 1940 up to neville chamberlain. but churchill was able to take over without bearing the blame of the shame that cham

under hitler, they tasted slavery. the frenchman, eisenhower is a liberator.. and across the english channel, which hitler could not cross, the people of battered london, who never would yield to the blitz, surrendered with a cheer to ike. >> to every londoner that has ever taken one of my soldiers into his home, i say you'll always have my profound gratitude. to everyone who has smilingly directed one of my men to the albert hall or to marble arch, i owe thanks also. >> churchill spoke for all history to remember. >> ladies and gentlemen, you have just seen and listened to the words of a great commander. a man who has proved not only his capacity to organize and regulate the movements of armies, but to stir men's hearts and who has shown a capacity for making great nations march together. more truly united than they ever have before. >> and so, by sincerity and simplicity, a kansan conquered britain. >> back home in america, the wife all the world called mamie was the first to say, i like ike. >> and then the rest of us shouted too. not hail the conquering he

all they read is comp is hitler's. they're going to -- comp is hitler -- trump is hitler.ost: the hurricane has been downgraded to a category one, headline with ida weakens as rescues begin. it became a tropical storm assess load over mississippi on monday while across southeast louisiana residents waited for daylight to be rescued from floodwaters. one of the most powerful hurricanes ever to strike the u.s. mainland. all of norlin -- all of new orleans lost power. just before that, the governor updated louisianans and others on the progress of the storm. [video clip] >> based on the hurricane track and the wind and rain forecast, the cpra is dissipating some overtopping of the southeast portion of the libby system. -- levy system. and not federal levees as well. overtopping is concerning, i want to make sure that everybody understands come overtopping and levy failure are not the same thing. a levy failure can be much more catastrophic. they are not the same thing. we are going to continue to monitor this flood protection system. i can tell you we do not anticipate any ov

one of the big prized war trophies was of course hitler's silver. when they were looking for war trophies they were looking for something that was invaluable. they all grew up in the depression they were taking pistols, useful items like the gloves we saw earlier. but when they got here to the gardens they were exposed to hitler's silver set. some of the lucky members of the 506 special the guys who got into the eagles nest on the mountain got some of hitler's silver and they mailed it home. we have a big collection of that at our museum. it is fascinating, people love that. it's all engraved with hitler's initials ah and the national eagle. how can i sit back and see men i'm sorry, how can it sit back and see others take men out and get them killed because i don't know, they don't have it. maybe i will get hurt or killed for my troubles. but so what if i can make it possible for many others to make it home. their mothers want them to the same as me. so what else can i do and still hold my self-respect as an officer and a man? so they were getting r

i don't to compare hitler there's books about hitler and his motivation is a why question about hitler. the end of the day is not respectable. the last time we had a conversation comment while looked in to americans i often found they were not particularly her why they turned to this. their reasons they might get involved will take the younger brother whoilled a 6-year-old boy and two others. if he was here and why would you do he would not have a very articulate explanation. three big rumblings about foreign policy. a lot of people posed foreign policy. there's a certain element at the end you hit a brick wall to some degree there is no rational why rson but there is a process and a document the process. >> may try to get at this question without using the word why. are there some specific forks in the road? what are some of those choices he events took him right and he might have gone left. >> the first some a death of his father. as far as i can tell he had a one-on-one meeting in his entire. his parents divorced when used to had other wives and four siblings. kimberly was dad has d

some of the objects, including a portrait of hitler's, gas masks, and revolver hidden in the wall. have more. reporter: gas masks, revolver, brass knuckles, and a portrait of hitler, some of the nazi secrets german family found behind the wall of their home devastated in the july floods. >> [speaking in foreign language] reporter: historians believe the objects may have been in the gap between two buildings before u.s. troops took the city in april 1945. >> [speaking in foreign language] reporter: staff at the local archives center have taken the artifacts away and believe the find will be a real treasure for research. some documents which date back to 1928 will be exhibited in the city museum. anchor: turning now to the congo , where at least 15 temperature have been killed in two of rebel attacks. islamist fighters are said to be responsible. we will bring you more on that story as it develops. there you can see the town where it happened, the village, in eastern congo. money ultimately became between lionel messi and his boyhood club. the stryker wanted to stay, but the club cou

hitler thought he was a good guy not that they were doing good, is any question of that. >> no, that's exactly the point the people that are doing this are doing on behalf of the angels i think that is part of an people in the middle the notion that the free and prosperous life that we've all been granted because we've been building on the shoulders of giants for generations now that free prosper is incredibly less life that we all live, the greatest privilege in the world is to be boarding america that's an unbelievable privilege is true historically and contextually and for all time in all places, it's an amazing place to be, but because they take them for granted the verse from the bible comes to me from deuteronomy, that really is what it is, were fat, happy, lazy, all the things that we want at a click of a button and that's the way normality is, normal life is what we have right now which means any movement from normal kindle be good toward utopia, this is where the national status of things, you hear this from folks on the left sometimes i saw a quote that was one of the dumbest

hitler has no interest in the mediterranean theater. he wants to win the war against the soviet union. and he makes that decision really quite soon after the campaign in france. and after the coercion of britain through the battle, it doesn't go quite germany's way. so hitler sees the war in the east as the decisive theater. so north africa is always just a distraction for him. now, admiral does come up with a plan in the summer of 1940 when germany still has the chance to make a strategic decision. he argues, well, we can go after the british and the mediterranean. we can knock the props out of the british empire, then we can defeat the british homeland, then we can turn against russia. but that kind of more so conventional, peripheral campaign, and approach to strategy, isn't one which hitler wants to buy. i think that the other point about the campaign in north africa, certainly the soviets never understand, and quite frankly many people don't understand. to put one division in north africa takes a vast amount of effort. far more eff

who's going to argue a case for a neo nazi to march through the jewels section of town on adolf hitler'sbirthday. you know what ally lawyer did? he did. he argued. he said everything the neo nazi stand for discuss me, but it is not about them, it is about their right to do one under the constitution under the bill of rights? to march and to express their views. just because i don't like the views doesn't mean they can't express them. he argued the case for them. one of the case. and then the neo-nazi party said, we will not march anyway. we will march in chicago, and they marched in chicago. again, give me an example recently where extreme right wing groups wanted to meet together to demonstrate to assemble, and it turned violent and it has ripped this country apart. yes? where? >> the black lives movement the black lives matter movement. >> but where the black lives matter movement was involved, where did the fires burn? >> what about charlottesville, virginia? >> yes, charlottesville, virginia. that was one two years ago? the neo-nazis and other right-wing groups wanted to meet. what w

if everybody in the mainstream media says donald trump was worse than hitler and all the voters were huge majority of them are on their machines checking their twitter accounts and all that all day and all they read is trump is hitler, they are going to vote for anybody other -- host: i will let you go. greg did bring up biden --this is not diverting, the hurricane has not been delegated to category one, so plenty of damage. associated press with the headline, ida weakens. it became a tropical storm is it slowed over mississippi on monday, while across southeast louisiana, residents waited for daylight to be rescued from floodwaters and see the damage from one of the most powerful hurricanes ever to strike the u.s. mainland. all of norma's lost power around sunset on sunday, and there was pouring rain and howling winds. yesterday afternoon, the governor, john bel edwards, updated louisiana and others on the process -- progress of the storm. here is he had to say. [video clip] >> based on the hurricane track and the wind, rain, and surge forecast for the remainder of the hurricane, th

so hitler sees the war in the east as the decisive theater. so north africa is always just a distraction for him. we can knock the props out of the british empire, then we can defeat the british and turn against russia. but that kind of more so conventional, peripheral campaign, and approach the strategy, isn't one which hitler wants to buy. i think that the other point about the campaign in north africa, certainly the soviets never understand, quite frankly many people do not understand. to put one division in north africa takes a vast amount of effort. far more effort than it takes to put a division on the eastern front. you need to think about shipping, you need to think about supplying absolutely everything that formation needs. so when you see a german division in north africa, in terms of the overall moments here, you are probably talking about the equivalent of four to five german divisions on the eastern front. in terms of military transport, some estimates would suggest that to keep the division in the field of north africa requires 2

hitler has no interest in the mediterranean theater.wants to win the war against the soviet union and he makes that decision really quite soon the campaign in france and afterr the coercion of britain battle of britain does not go quite germany's way, and so hitler does not see it quite his sway, and so that wa is just a distraction of him. and anow, the admiral does com up with a plan when the chancellor does have a chance to make a strategic decision, and hen argues that we can go after thee germans after the strategi change, and we can defeat the british erhomeland and then tur against russian, but that more f the sequential, and more peripheral campaign or the approach to strategy isn't one which hit hitler and wants to buy. he i think that other point about the t campaigns in northern afra which certainly the soviets never understand is to put one division inha north africa takea vast amount of effort, far more effort than it t takes to put a division on the east earn front, because you think about shipping and supplying about ever

because by marching on adolph hitler's birthday, we're expressing our political view.nd it was denied. they sued. and you know what the american nazi party did? they got the aclu, the american civil liberties union to defend them. now, the aclu, you familiar with it? the american civil liberties union is a very liberal group made up, essentially, of lawyers and they take cases that they feel are right and they argue them pro bono, for free. the nazis on the right go to the american civil liberties union on the left and they get a jewish lawyer. and they say to him we want you to argue our case. a jewish lawyer now, who's going to argue a case the neo-nazis to march through the jewish section of town on adolph hitler's birthday. and you know what the lawyer did? he did it. he argued it. he said everything the neo-nazis stand for disgust me. but it's not about them. it's about their right to do what under the constitution? under the bill of rights? to march and express their views. just because i don't like their views, doesn't mean they can't express them. he argued the

hitler has no interest in the mediterranean theater.wants to win the war against the soviet union and he makes that decision really quite soon after the -- the campaign. after the campaign in france and after the coercion of britain though the battle of britain does not go quite germany's way, and so hitler does not see it quite his way, and so that war is just a distraction of him. and now, the admiral does come up with a plan in the summer of 1940, when germany still has a chance to make a strategic decision, and he argues that we can go after the english in the mediterranean and knock the props out with the british empire. then we can defeat the # british homeland and then turn against russian, but that more of the sequential, and more peripheral campaign or the approach to strategy isn't one which hitler wants to buy. i think that other point about the campaigns in northern africa which certainly the soviets never understand and quite frankly, many people don't understand is that to put one division in north africa takes a vast amou

american nazi party filed for a permit to march through -- what is it, skokie, illinois, on adolf hitler's birthday, and the march through the jewish section of town in full nazi uniforms. the city said, no, we're not giving you the permit, and the nazis said you're violating our freedom of assembly and on top of that, our freedom of speech because by marching on adolf hitler's birthday, we're expressing our political view. and it was denied. they sued, and you know what the american nazi party did? they got the aclu, the american civil liberties union to defend them. now, the aclu, are you familiar with it? the american civil liberties union is a very liberal group made up essentially of lawyers, and they take cases that they feel are right, and they argue them pro bono. they argue them for free. the nazis on the right go to the american civil liberties union on the left and they get a jewish lawyer, and they say to him we want you to argue our case. a jewish lawyer now who's going to argue a case for the neo-nazis to march through the jewish section of town on adolf hitler's birthday. an

so, hitler knew i was coming. that's why he gave up.[laughs] and then, like i said, we got p-47's, and then since i didn't go over, i joined the 99th in kentucky, and they had p-47's. so i flew p-47's up until the time of integration. and that was in june of 49. they built the 332nd and scattered us across the world. another pilot and i were assigned to a fighter group in japan. before we departed, our 201 file had been forwarded to the wing commander. in there, was our picture. so, the wing commander called all the pilots into base theater, and said we have these two black pilots coming in. it will be assigned to one of these squadrons. the pilots told us this themselves. he said no way are we going to fight with them. no way. anyway, we were reporting to the main commander, we talked in his office. and he said, what do you want us to call you? i said, well, i'm a first lieutenant, eddie is a second lieutenant. he said, okay, but then he made a mistake. he said we are free fighter squadrons on the base, to p-51s and at-6 and f80 squadr

so hitler knew i was coming. that's why he gave up. [ laughter ] and then, like i said, we got p-47s. and then since i didn't go over, i joined the 99th in kentucky and they had p-47s. so i flew p-47s up until the time of integration, and that was in june of '49. they broke the 332nd up and scattered us all over the world. eddie drummond and i, another pilot, we were assigned to a fighter group in japan. before we departed, our 201 file had been forwarded to the wing commander. and in there was our picture. so he, the wing commander called all the pilots in and said, we have these two negro pilots coming in. they will be assigned so one of the squadrons. the pilots told us that themselves. they said, no way are we going to fly with them. no way. anyway, eddie drummond and i reported to the wing commander. we were talking in his office. he said, what you want us to call you? i said, well, i'm a first lieutenant. eddie's a second lieutenant. how about lieutenants harvey and drummond? he said, okay. but then he made

and very good intelligence, and so therefore hitler knew i was coming, and that is why he gave it up [ laughter ] and then like i said, we got the p-47s. and then when i, since i did not go over, i joined the 99th at godwin field kentucky and they had p-47s. so i flew the p-47s up until the time of integration in june of '49, and they broke the 332nd up, and scattered us up all over the world. eddie drummond and i were assigned to a fighter group in masala, japan. before we departed lockborn, the 201 file had been forwarded to the wing commander and in there was our picture. so he, the wing commander called all of the pilots into the base theater, and he said, we have two negro pilots coming in, and they will be assigned to one of the squadrons and the pilots told us themselves, and no way will we fly with them, no way. and eddie drummond and i reported to the wing commander and we were talking in his office. and he said, what do you want us to call you, and said, well, i'm a first lieutenant, and he is a second lieutenant, and how about lieutenants harvey and drummond. he said, okay

under hitler france faced slavery. the france that eisenhower liberated.cross the english channel, the people of battered london, under the blitz, [inaudible] . >> to every londoner that has ever made this place home, i give you all my profound gratitude. to everyone who has smiling lee directed one of my men to the marble arch or albert hall, i give a thank you. >> something for all history to remember. [applause] >> ladies and gentlemen, you have just seen the awards of a great commander. a man who has proved his capacity to organize and regulate the movements of armaments, and who has shown a capacity for making great nations march together, no more united than i ever have been for. >> [inaudible] that wife of america, the one called mamie doud, would say i like ike. >> they were bursting with pride from a great friend and a great love, washington belongs not to a friend went to the people. >> i stand before the elected members. -- the great cause of our political life, i recall the american heritage. [applause] and now watch would a country boy can do

you see hitler walking into the stadium at the beginning of the games in august 1936. the germans bring a lot of pomp and pageantry to the games. a lot that they bring is still with us today when we watch the olympic games every fourth year. they communicate to the world that they are back in the community of nations. they are one the most advanced nations. they cast doubt, even some american journalists and others to go over there they don't see signs of overt discrimination. even though we have been hearing about it for three years they had been in power already. >> the sanitized version of germany duped a lot of people or it is given a spotlight. i think we had one more image, as something i've studied and written about. the torch is not just theatrical. to add the false evidence to the area and myths they are some ancient people rooted in an older culture. this is a way of amplifying that quite visibly and in person. >> to see the flags on that gate, next to the olympic flags and for fairplay internationalism. i thought it all what it stands for, to match those ide

it's the final step in hitler's defense. from 1930 and was basically the go-ahead by huge swaths of population. that sort of thing is pretty common the instrument of destruction things become crystal clear all the institutes of society being weaponize is nothing say the left is going to yield as far as the blowback i think that has begun. you are seeing it in the broad national movement for example critical race theory. there is a burgeoning movement the future of the country is not going to rely on the hard work and the conservatives do. it lies with the radical left. the question of where the country lies going forward is going to lie with traditional liberals on the right goals. it may agree with the radical left on the utopian goals and disagree with the left on the radical left beat power of the liberal sales to the left we agree with the things nui can nationalize healthcare and taxes, distribution of income we agree with all those things. you do not get to destroy individual rights and get people fired for no reason f

hitler thought he was a good guy. the nazis thought of doing good. is there any question now? >> no. that's the point, the people doing this now think they're doing this on behalf of the angels. that's part of it. for people in the middle the notion the free and prosperous life we've been granted because we've been building on the shoulders of giants for generations, that free prosperous incredibly blessed life that we all live, the greatest privilege in the world is to be born in america. that's an unbelievable privilege. that's true historically, true contextually right now and for all time in all places. this is an amazing place to be and a place to live. but because we take them for granted the verse from the bible comes to me from deuteronomy that you sure got fat -- that really is what it is. we are fat, happy, lazy, with all the things we want at the click of a button and that's the way normality is. normally does what we have right now which means any movement from normal can only be good. it can only be towards utopia. this is the baseline, this is the natural status