barry eichengreen, how do you react to the number $3.5 trillion as an overlay on the previous debt? respond to that and how would you advise the congresswoman from berkeley, nancy pelosi? barry: congresswoman poulos the -- nancy pelosi is actually the congresswoman from -- tom: to meet is the same thing. barry: i would remind her it is $3.5 billion over 10 years. i would remind her the economy is still 2% smaller than it would've been without the pandemic. i would emphasize it is important the investment be productive and we think carefully about how to allocate it. tom: barry eichengreen, thank you so much. hands down my book of the year. "in defense of public debt." i cannot say enough about it. 226 pages of varied dense, very readable history. as you mentioned lisa to our present moment. lisa: as we encourage debt globally on a corporate and public level. the specificity of what the programs are that the borrowed money goes towards is the achilles' heel of the discussion because you have to get granular and those granularity's have a lot of disagreement going on in washington. to

i am pleased to announce that barry eichengreen's new book on debt is my book of the year, and this iso talk about it. how do you interpret the outcome of this buildup in debt, which is life at the zero bound? >> we are in a situation where in normal times we are not reducing deficits. whenever there is a crisis, we backstop the financial system, more buildup of public debt, build up a private. with zero or negative rates, quantitative easing is cheap. in good times and bad times, debt ratios are rising. eventually, central banks are in a trap. with these levels of private and public debt, there may be a market crash and economic crash. amanda: some pretty interesting insight. two different threads. another example of something that could be an isolated case. the question will be, do you need to worry about spillover, is this evidence that we don't always know what is lurking out there? he is pointing to the bigger overlay. at some point, we will see the universe be not as friendly to creditors, and what happens then? matt: it is interesting to hear him get a little bit bearish. he is