now clearly to a lot of people and based on the great work of journalists, specifically john carreyrouthis was fraud as the jury found but i think there's some soul searching to take place within both public and private company ceos about how far, carl, is too far. >> yeah. and you know, you do see this at some -- to some extent sorry, carl. one last thing you see this playing out i mentioned spac are allowing companies to go earlier. the investors that lost in the case of theranos and elizabeth holmes are investors with a lot of money you look at nikola and the claims that trevor milton made and he will be on trial for april. i wonder what the implications are here you have this case in the public when he's about to get his turn at his investor promises that reached ordinary retail investors. >> yeah. interesting. we'll see what happens on the sentencing front in the days to come. >>> meanwhile, i have to keep your eye on the markets here s&p taking a leg lower, back below 4,800. nasdaq is down about 1.5%. tech stock is obviously selling off. >>> our next guest remains bullish on clou