. >> a question for eric conway. how does the mainstream media plan the spread of propaganda and are there sources of alternative explanations or alternative takes on capitalism? >> good and tough questions. we dealt a little more with the media in the merchants of doubt because they were so incorporated and effective at spreading the deny list messages. partly because of their own institutional values. the idea there are two sides to every story, which itself derives from a two-party, democratic state. in europe, there are many parties. most european countries have many parties and there are many newspapers to go along with those that you get a cacophony of voices. we talk about that in merchants out. in this book, we don't do much with tracing them into the mainstream media, partly lack of sources. you are restrained by the material you can actually get your hands on and we work on archival list material and books produced by other historians. but we don't get at the internal culture of journalism and why it is the

third is eric conway, noted historian of science and technology. he works for the california institute of technology or caltech. something new for our audience today, he has just told me he served as an enlisted man in the navy and rose to be an officer in the navy. to me, that says he is a smart maverick in his book says that as well. his new -- new book is the big myth -- how american business taught us to loathe government and love the free market. it is just out a few weeks ago. 550 pages -- it is a piece of history that is one of the most formidable pieces of research and writing i've seen and i was at the university here. i asked if he is the top author writing about the big myth -- the big myth is the belief business knows everything, they can just get on the way and let them solve global warming and covid and they will just take care of it. sure they will. he said i don't know if i am the number one. i said it is the biggest book on the big myth. that is partly because there has been a lot more history. that's what the book is all about. on

and one of the people there was eric conway, i mentioned the name of one of the people who was attacking me. and eric said, well, they only, you know, is the same person who attacked sherry roland over the ozone hall. and he told me this amazing story that i knew nothing about at the time that the scientists who had worked on the ozone hole had been the target of attacks in which people had claimed that there was no ozone hold at the science was wrong. that the scientists were fraudulent, that the scientists were communist. all the things that i was being accused of. these great noble prize winning scientists had also been accused of. and so eric said to me, yeah, when we get back to mark, i'll send you. i'll send you an envelope with a bunch of stuff. so he sent me this package arrives a few days later and i take out these papers that he sent me and it was like you could take out the word oath on hall and put in climate change. and he could take out the word roland, imprint, roskus, and otherwise it was identical. mm hm. awe on a spring day in 1998, a group of men meet at the oil indust

try to turn on the good old french charm during this visit, but with conway showing up at a dinner party are from being put off at eric. not sure how attacking someone before arriving on the doorstep is going to grief ration. but china is important for europe and it is in the interests their actual job or at his he. but making statements suggest that china knows that the rhetorical lunacy as gets a frame yes, coming from european official stems from the desire to keep washington onside on one hand, but also to maintain ties with china. as even vander line herself, concedes we need to focus on di risk, not decoupled. we must leave space for discussion on a more ambitious partnership, and on how we can make competition farrah and more disciplined. so for all the criticism level at china, the fact is that mccoy vander line are set to meet with various high level chinese officials on this visit, including the chinese premier and the chairman of the chinese national legislature . so all the nasty rhetoric in the world really can't mask the fact that despite washington's anti china ambitions, beijing is still one of europe'