vornado realty and boston properties, both were up today, but lost more than 20% in 2023 the two worst performing reits in the sector. so, karen -- >> yes >> what sparked your interest in these two? >> well, just the so bad it's good, like, if you thought, where should i short something now? this would come first to mind, right? which makes me think, all right, it must be really crowded. there's a lot to hate. sentiment is terrible. we all know the mack ro interes rates are high, you have debt refinancing coming up, work from home, and you have tech companies laying off tons of people all of that's terrible and yet, i do feel like maybe it's so bad that it's good i mean, the stocks have absolutely gotten crushed and i think they'll bottom before the actual business turn, so, that's one thing to like about it it's interesting that new money is coming into distressed real estate you had blackstone, i think it was a $20 billion fund, i think double line started two funds. so, that's of interest to me and i think, you know, the sort of -- always think of tim saying, you make the most money

or is this a specific story to vornado? abigail: it is right across the board, it is a macro story.here are other areas of real estate doing fine like hospitality but relative to offices, he goes back to the pandemic with people working from home. the value of their portfolio in 2019 was $5.6 billion and this last february, it went to $4 billion. it has to do with rising delinquencies relative to debt because cnbs is a big deal and brookfield had defaulted on properties. they defaulted on 765 million relative to l.a. properties and other defaults we have seen from blackstone, makes it interesting. it goes to values. for those big wealth capitalized companies, it is nonrecourse debt. it tells you they think the debt is not worth saving. where are we in the endings of this game? it is hard to say what it has to do with refinancings because with interest rates going up, that is the double whammy to the pandemic. lease signings, if leases that are up don't get signed, that can create a problem for landlords. kriti: you mentioned brookfield as well. i wonder how long it will take to see

trivia for you, vornado started off, making blenders. that is how they began. there is always a fall back position. appreciate it, my friend. bring in morgan stanley senior vice president of investment jim lacamp. jim, it has been an interesting year for this market. had a little bit of everything, it is only the first week of april. we saw president trump, former president trump, the market took another leg down. it is hard to connect the dots but as investment professional people have to come to you, political turmoil in this country, how nervous is it making people? what are you telling them? >> it does make people nervous. it is not just the political tour mill. that is a big thing, charles. that is probably talking point number one. talking point number two are we going into recession. talking point number three, what in the hell is jerome powell doing? you look at news about trump, people are very worried about the direction this country is taking, how polarized it is, how businesses are trying to get involved, some on the right, some on the left and it j

i should mention that apparently 2% of vornado's revenue is from bloomberg lp but well off of the lowsay down more than 10%. guy: thank you very much indeed. important to make those points. let's pick up and ask one of the questions that i think is floating around. in some ways today is interesting because of what we are not talking about. we are not talking about first republic and the way we were over the last few days. is the crisis over? is the anticipation that this is going to be potentially coming to u -- coming to an end soon? and the banking crisis and what happens to first republic? does the banking crisis and with first republic. to kick around what is happening and in credit land, dwight scott. and sonali basak. over to you. sonali: thank you for joining us. when we look at first republic there are questions if it in's here or if there's a second leg to the crisis. what do you see? dwight: i don't think we know the answer to if the crisis will see another victim down the road . i think that we've learned that the market, and the fed especially, will protect the banking mark

we bought bank of america, and we brought vornado, commercial real estate is the most hated -- liz: well, nobody's going back. they're 20% vacant. >> no one's going back to the bnc crisis. we think this is like the mall crisis of four or five years ago, and simon property did very well. you've got madison avenue, park avenue, fifth avenue, sixth avenue like this, the best buildings in the best city in the world, and the stock -- despite revenues being down 5% since pre-pandemic, cash flow down 10%, the stock is down 75%. it's trading at a 40% discount to book. the worst case scenario is priced in. it will get worse, but as the lay more market loosens, more and more people are coming back to the office was they're worried about getting laid off. liz: i was scrutinizing this bank of america survey, and they had the most heavily managed trades, the first one was long the tech the, short the banks. but the contrarian one is long the banks and short bonds. are you anywhere -- [laughter] in that alchemy? >> we also run a little bit of a barbell, but right now we have some of the same names tha

in vern nato realty trust --vornado realty trust.ech giants consolidating power and on the other hand real estate struggling. this company is down or than 13%. tom: you are really reading into this. what is your observation of where we are at the end of april in commercial real estate? lisa: it is a long process because a lot of the leases have long expiration date. that said, it is like a pretty value has gone down significantly. this is a point of concern given the concentration of the assets on bank and small bank balance sheets. jonathan: i think you framed it perfectly. where'd we take the signal from the earnings this morning. text telling you something i talked about this earlier, saying can you take a cyclical away from what you saw from meta without rebounding. lisa: he said no there is a story about the company. you get signals from ups in the package volume coming down. you look at disappointments in other areas and it is specific with consolidation in power. and that is giving a muddy signal. tom: those companies adapt. w