our guest today is igor chepurin and with you elena kipr producer producer and elena director of thetial fund for cultural initiatives. i recently spoke with one person who represents industrial design. and so we talked with him about the state. strictly speaking industrial design. i asked him to draw me, so to speak, here is a diagram and indicate where we are at all, he drew such a ladder and somewhere below, so we poked at it here, how it happened. we have wonderful traditions of industrial design, generally speaking, soviet ones. uh, how did we find ourselves in such a situation that our industrial design is again at the point, so to speak, at the very beginning of development. i think that, probably, it was design in the days of the soviet union. as such, probably did not actively develop, and there really was no effort, but to do something individually. i even remember educational technologies, when i was studying, the first line was that we differ in that it enslaves individuality there. and here's how the unity goes through here's the similarity, and so, i think, this was the