sonali: joining us is vishwanath tirupattur peter tchir and peter tchir -- and peter tchir. yields don't tell the story. what has to give? peter: --vishwanath: there is going to be very much quality dependent decompression ahead of us. the most honorable part of the markets are indeed the indicated leveraged loans. we think as a right now we don't have huge financing but six months from now, financing begin to mount and if you look 18 months ahead leveraged loans and high-yield, it will need to be refinanced. six months forward, that becomes $260 billion. stocks becoming a concern as you go down and then you have the challenge of having to refinance at significantly higher interest rates. that will be a challenge for the markets. sonali: when you look at the movement you saw earlier this year, do you think the people feeling this part of the market hold off, at what point do they start to experience losses if the environment were to turn in rates state higher? peter: read it still looks relatively cheap if you go back to where we were in 2018 or 2019. the vix tends to be wit