i tried, gaynor. tried. gaynor.u mentioned the equal pay >> so you mentioned the equal pay thing. >> so that's £760 million. this is going back to 2010 when they were because were found ad wanting because they hadn't paid women working for the council the same rates as men. so they've got that , as men. so they've got that, that they've got to pay. but i think you know, when you look at some of these councils on the list and you look at croydon is a perfect example of a council that thought that it could do something amazing, that thought that it could do something amazing , that it could something amazing, that it could go and build and become go and build houses and become basically property developer basically a property developer and it launched this scheme called by brick. it called brick by brick. it was a total disaster and you can see that replicated across the country where councils , as many, country where councils, as many, many councils do amazing things and many councillors are there for the right reaso

thanks forjoining us, gaynor losing her own son back in 2000. thanks for joining us, gaynor.ragedy that you've been through, too. but obviously all of these years later , you must of these years later, you must have thoughts on how on earth we can get to grips with knife crime. what can we do with stop and search, help keep , stop and search? >> yes . but unfortunately, >> yes. but unfortunately, sometimes they hide knives down drainpipe downwards and pull it up. so you know those times they have them hidden quite often. but but gosh, over 20 years now, i've been beating the drum, if you like, saying education, education and you'll see a lot of people saying exactly the same thing. we need to get into schools at a very early age. i'm talking aboutjunior schools at a very early age. i'm talking about junior school and carry on, put on the curriculum and get it through to children exactly what it's like . we have exactly what it's like. we have many, many charities going around doing it, but they're funded for, say, one session and then come out . that's not good then come out.