so i think building on what lord arbuthnot says. _ building on what lord arbuthnot says, given thereer process, because i agree, there is— quicker process, because i agree, there is a — quicker process, because i agree, there is a capability to resolve these — there is a capability to resolve these matters in the course of this year but _ these matters in the course of this year but there is another factor which _ year but there is another factor which comes into play, we need to -ive which comes into play, we need to give the _ which comes into play, we need to give the sub—postmasters the benefit of the _ give the sub—postmasters the benefit of the doubt on key matters. as it stands, _ of the doubt on key matters. as it stands, we — of the doubt on key matters. as it stands, we are faced with requests for information, finite detail in relation — for information, finite detail in relation to things with no supporting documentation. because of the passage of time or because the sub—postmaster was locked out of the post office _ sub—postmaster was locked out of the post office 15 or 2

lord arbuthnot ridiculous. and lord arbuthnot has been even more bullish about ridiculous.even more bullish about ridiculous. and lord arbuthnot ha�*why�*n e\we more bullish about ridiculous. and lord arbuthnot ha�*why�*n e\we whyz bullish about ridiculous. and lord arbuthnot ha�*why�*n e\we why are llish about ridiculous. and lord arbuthnot ha�*why�*n e\we why are they about it. why are we why are they still mean, well, to fair to >> i mean, well, to be fair to them, if you're midway through a contract this scandals contract and this scandals just broken, okay, that's contract law, you law, isn't it? you know, you can't just immediately halt all the certainly can't just immediately halt all the forward, certainly can't just immediately halt all the forward, cknow,.y can't just immediately halt all the forward, (know, saying going forward, you know, saying things in the future, things like, oh, in the future, you we're going to look you know, we're going to look at, um, we're going to look at you know, we're going to look at, doing e're going to look at you know, we're goin

so the post office have apologised time and again and lord arbuthnot pointed out there were good people sort this out but it will take time and there is a public inquiry going on at the moment and the post office did tell us that they are behind the inquiry and want to get accountability for what went wrong and a few ideas have been mooted and certainly the government is looking at whether the post office could be removed from the appeal system and whether the cps could take over but no matter who takes over it could take years and years to work through hundreds of cases to get people having their cases overturned so another idea floated is a state intervention to exonerate them en masse and it would require an act of parliament and this is something they're looking at doing and there is a mounting case and many of them have been trying to clear their names for two decades or so. mr sunak also spoke about his rwanda asylum plan and several other issues in his interview with laura kuenssberg — and we'll be playing it in full for viewers in the uk, at half past four. the environment agenc

lord arbuthnot, thank you for talking to us this evening.how would you describe the length of time it has taken to get to this point? frankly terrible. we could have resolved this entire issue when ron warmington and iain henderson went in in the first place, if the post office had not tried to cover everything up and to protect the brand at the expense of the sub—postmasters. —— ron warmington and ian henderson pulled up so it's terrible. d0 and ian henderson pulled up so it's terrible. , ., . and ian henderson pulled up so it's terrible. . . , terrible. do you have any reservations _ terrible. do you have any reservations about - terrible. do you have any reservations about mps l terrible. do you have any| reservations about mps of terrible. do you have any _ reservations about mps of returning convictions handed out by the courts? �* . convictions handed out by the courts? �* , ,., . convictions handed out by the courts? �*, ,., . , courts? it's something that is... it makes one — courts? it's something that is... it makes one feel _ cour

i've been talking to one of those members, lord james arbuthnot. with one of his constituents who was convicted in 2009 and he outlined part of the problem for me. for them to have to come forward is itself an affront, because they have to come forward and they have to apply for their conviction to be overturned and they then have to, according to current rules, have the burden of proof of showing that their conviction is unsafe and that's all wrong given the way the post office has behaved over so many years, it ought not to be for the sub—postmasters to have to prove they were badly treated. we all know they were badly treated. it ought to be something that is done en masse so we can put this behind us and move on. so the post office have apologised time and again for this, and lord arbuthnot pointed out there were good people working there now trying to sort this out but it will take time. there is a public inquiry going on at the moment and the post office did tell us that they are behind the inquiry and want to see accountability for what went

pointed out there was— again and lord arbuthnot pointed out there was good people working there nowt but it will take — now trying to sort this out but it will take time and there is a public inquiry— will take time and there is a public inquiry going on at the moment and the posi— inquiry going on at the moment and the post office did tell us that they— the post office did tell us that they are — the post office did tell us that they are behind the inquiry and want to get— they are behind the inquiry and want to get accountability for what went wrong _ to get accountability for what went wrong and a few ideas have been mooted — wrong and a few ideas have been mooted and certainly what the garment — mooted and certainly what the garment is looking at is whether the post office _ garment is looking at is whether the post office could be removed from the appeal system and whether the cps could _ the appeal system and whether the cps could take over but no matter who takes — cps could take over but no matter who takes over it could take years and years — who takes over it could take ye

can i ask lord arbuthnot. _ much indeed. can i ask lord arbuthnot, an _ much indeed.say pass... it is al difficult subject. you have people who have — difficult subject. you have people who have been _ difficult subject. you have people who have been convicted - difficult subject. you have people who have been convicted or- difficult subject. you have people i who have been convicted or pleaded guilty— who have been convicted or pleaded guilty to— who have been convicted or pleaded guilty to a _ who have been convicted or pleaded guilty to a crime _ who have been convicted or pleaded guilty to a crime up _ who have been convicted or pleaded guilty to a crime up against - who have been convicted or pleaded guilty to a crime up against the - guilty to a crime up against the most _ guilty to a crime up against the most trusted _ guilty to a crime up against the most trusted brand _ guilty to a crime up against the most trusted brand in - guilty to a crime up against the most trusted brand in the - guilty to a crime up against the . most trusted brand in the country. guil

lord arbuthnot, thank you for talking to us this evening. i wonder if i

also know there has been some decisions taken in bad faith by the post office to the extent that lord arbuthnoter of the sub—postmasters for more than a decade, has said on the record that he has no doubt there was a conspiracy to pervert the course ofjustice at the post office, which is another criminal offence. the fact that the metropolitan police are now looking at the post office having defrauded its own sub—postmasters of their money, i think suggests that the met police have now realised what political pressure there is on them to start acting quickly about this and perhaps not even waiting until the public inquiry reports, which may not be until early next year. a clean—up operation for communities is underway across parts of england this morning, after days of heavy rainfall led to more than 1,000 homes and businesses being flooded. more than 200 flood warnings remain in place, mostly in the midlands, east anglia and the south. a teenage boy has been charged with the murder of the 16—year—old harry pitman, who was stabbed to death in primrose hill in north london on new year's eve. the

i put that to lord james arbuthnot earlier. cross—party inquiry and strove for justice. he said that was spot on. >> yes , yes, um. lord james >> yes, yes, um. lord james arbuthnot , i think one of the arbuthnot, i think one of the few politicians to emerge really very, very well indeed from this he supported his constituents. he fought for them for many years. and finally we're seeing the results. but it a picture of a massive failure of the state, really, isn't it going back many, many years, the post office is owned by the government. this faulty fujitsu horizon system . and what ever horizon system. and whatever happened to innocent till proven guilty because these innocent postmasters were presumed by the post office, it seems, and by the legal experts to be guilty because they couldn't prove that they were innocent, because simply they weren't believed. fujitsu said. no, nobody else has access. they believe the computer over and over again, over the individual people. it's absolute appalling. but i'm afraid, you know, we

james arbuthnot, lord arbuthnot, is a member of the horizon compensation advisory board and former conservativeub—postmasters also have people representing them who are also asking really powerful questions. of these investigators, at the moment, who lied on an almost daily basis, who lied on an almost daily basis, who were incentivised to get convictions rather than justice. who were incentivised to get convictions rather thanjustice. and convictions rather than justice. and there convictions rather thanjustice. and there are shocking stories coming out but i have faith in sherwin—williams, he has been doing a really good job in running this public inquiry and i think most sub—postmasters who have been involved in it also have faith in him. and i also have faith in the minister kevin hollinger rick because before he became a minister he was one of the people campaigning on behalf of the sub—postmasters so we are getting to the heart of the solution but it is taking far too long. as we've been reporting, the government confirmed it will introduce a one—off £75,000 payment for the 555 ex—postmas

i've been talking to one of those members, lord james arbuthnot.e of his constituents who was convicted in 2009 and he outlined part of the problem for me. for them to have to come forward is itself an affront, because they have to come forward and they have to apply for their conviction to be overturned and they then have to, according to current rules, have the burden of proof of showing that their conviction is unsafe and that's all wrong and given and that's all wrong given the way the post office has behaved over so many years, it ought not to be for the sub—postmasters to have to prove they were badly treated. we all know they were badly treated. it ought to be something that is done en masse so we can put it behind us and move on. this behind us and move on. lets speak to richard moorhead, a professor of law and ethics at exeter university, who has dedicated his research to the legal failings around the post office scandal. thank you forjoining us. when the prime minister says he is considering extra measures to make this right for the victi

also know there have been some decisions taken in bad faith by the post office to the extent lord arbuthnoter of the sub—postmaster is for a decade has said on the record he has no doubt there was a conspiracy to pervert the course ofjustice at the post office which is another criminal offence. the fact we metropolitan police are looking at the post office having defrauded its own sub—postmasters of their money i think suggests the met police have now realised what political pressure there is on them to start acting quickly about this and perhaps not even waiting until the public inquiry reports, which may not be until early next year. a metropolitan police officer has been suspended after being charged with rape. pc andrej sagaidak has been charged with two counts of rape, one count of non—fatal strangulation and one count of causing actual bodily harm. the officer was off—duty at the time of the alleged offences. at least 11 people, including five children, have been killed in a russian missile strike in eastern ukraine, according to local officials. around six houses were destroyed in th

can i ask of the question i indyref with lord arbuthnot. why are we still using horizon?on as well. this - horizon? again, that is the at least worst option as well. this is - horizon? again, that is the at least worst option as well. this is one i horizon? again, that is the at least worst option as well. this is one of| worst option as well. this is one of the biggest — worst option as well. this is one of the biggest it networks i think in europe. — the biggest it networks i think in europe. if— the biggest it networks i think in europe, if not the world. it is a significant _ europe, if not the world. it is a significant thing to replace. it is being _ significant thing to replace. it is being replaced. ithink significant thing to replace. it is being replaced. i think they cost so far of— being replaced. i think they cost so far of replacing it is around £270 million — far of replacing it is around £270 million it— far of replacing it is around £270 million. it is being rebuilt and we want _ million. it is being rebuilt and we want to— million. it is being rebuilt an

also know there has been some decisions taken in bad faith by the post office to the extent that lord arbuthnot of the sub—postmasters for more than a decade, has said on the record that he has no doubt there was a conspiracy to pervert the course ofjustice at the post office, which is another criminal offence. the fact that the metropolitan police are now looking at the post office having defrauded its own sub—postmasters of their money, i think suggests that the met police have now realised what political pressure there is on them to start acting quickly about this and perhaps not even waiting until the public inquiry reports, which may not be until early next year. meanwhile, we need to focus the minds on the victims in all of this, those who have suffered so much over the years. we heard jeremy hunt talking there about how millions has already been paid out, but there are many people still waiting for compensation, aren't there? yes, i interviewed the former post office minister paul scully, who has done more than most ministers to actually kick—start the process of redress and accountabili

, who upheld, and lord arbuthnot, who is an mp at the time of the scandal, says he is delighted withsed indeed . the >> very pleased indeed. the government has moved very quickly and the drama has had a galvanising effect . i quickly and the drama has had a galvanising effect. i am delighted both because it means that convictions are going to be overturned, which otherwise simply wouldn't have been . and simply wouldn't have been. and because it looks as though there's going to be a usefully speeded up way of dealing with compensation . or as we must now compensation. or as we must now call it, redress. so i'm delighted . delighted. >> but vijay parekh , one of the >> but vijay parekh, one of the victims of the post office scandal , spoke to victims of the post office scandal, spoke to gb victims of the post office scandal , spoke to gb news scandal, spoke to gb news earlier. he said he wants more to be done . to be done. >> all the people who are involved in this get the same treatment. we have had all this, uh, convicted , uh, postmasters uh, convicted, uh, postmasters and let them

. >> lord arbuthnot today and kevin jones for, for labour. >> um, but officialdom just took this viewy dogged. and is there a feeling that the state is just out of touch with its voters ? isn't touch with its voters? isn't this the feeling that led to the brexit vote? isn't it the feeling that allowed this to happen with the post office, because you had no means of redress. you couldn't speak to anybody . nobody wanted to talk anybody. nobody wanted to talk to you. yes. ed davey you wouldn't meet. >> and i think on a much smaller level, most individuals have experienced that stonewalling. i go to my lambeth council, i see a sign we will not tolerate abuse towards staff. well i think, well, why are people getting so stressed? they want to because actually to abuse you because actually constantly we get up, sub stand and performance. they make a mistake on a birth certificate. it costs the person who's who's the innocent victim to have that mistake corrected. the process takes some times years just one small example from from my street where i live. i think though, then you mentioned th

. >> lord arbuthnot today and kevin jones for, for labour. >> um, but officialdom just took this viewy dogged. and is there a feeling that the state is just out of touch with its voters ? isn't touch with its voters? isn't this the feeling that led to the brexit vote? isn't it the feeling that allowed this to happen with the post office, because you had no means of redress. you couldn't speak to anybody . nobody wanted to talk anybody. nobody wanted to talk to you. yes. ed davey you wouldn't meet. >> and i think on a much smaller level, most individuals have experienced that stonewalling. i go to my lambeth council, i see a sign we will not tolerate abuse towards staff. well i think, well, why are people getting so stressed? they want to because actually to abuse you because actually constantly we get up, sub stand and performance. they make a mistake on a birth certificate. it costs the person who's who's the innocent victim to have that mistake corrected. the process takes some times years just one small example from from my street where i live. i think though, then you mentioned th

can i can i put on record my thanks to lord arbuthnot, who is in the gallery today and also the righth durham, for their work on this campaign generally and on that advisory board , following their advisory board, following their recommendation , uh, following recommendation, uh, following their recommendation would involve quite a unprecedented action by parliament to overturn specific verdicts of the courts. the government is, of course, completely recognises the importance of an independent court system and judiciary. importance of an independent court system and judiciary . so court system and judiciary. so this recommendation raises important issues of constitutional principle. this is therefore not a decision we can take lightly . it is also can take lightly. it is also creates the risks of a different sort of injustice , as i am sure sort of injustice, as i am sure a great many people were wrongly convicted in this scandal, but i cannot tell the house that all those prosecuted were indeed innocent , or those prosecuted were indeed innocent, or even that it was 90% or 80 or 70 w

. >> well, lord arbuthnot, who is an mp at the time of the scandal, says he's pleased with the result. the result. >> very pleased indeed . the >> very pleased indeed. the government has moved very quickly and the drama has had a galvanising effect . i quickly and the drama has had a galvanising effect. i am delighted both because it means that convictions are going to be overturned, which otherwise simply wouldn't have been. and because it looks as though there's going to be a usefully speeded up way of dealing with compensate , or as we must now compensate, or as we must now call it, redress . so compensate, or as we must now call it, redress. so i'm delighted that . delighted that. >> but one of the victims of the post office scandal, vijay parekh, told gb news more should be done. >> all the people who are involved in this get the same treatment we have had all this , treatment we have had all this, uh, convicted , uh, postmasters uh, convicted, uh, postmasters and let them feel how we felt. we've done nothing and we've been imprisoned. they have done something. so they need to be

well, joining us now is conservative lord and former mp lord arbuthnot. good to see you this morning. so i mean where do we begin with this story? rishi sunak. i mean where do we begin with this story? rishi sunak . and of this story? rishi sunak. and of course now the justice secretary, under huge pressure , secretary, under huge pressure, uh, to bring justice really to all of those who were so wrongly convicted in this scandal. >> yes . um, convicted in this scandal. >> yes. um, the real concern that i have at the moment is that i have at the moment is that of the 730 or more, it could be up to 900, maybe a thousand, uh, people who have convictions. it's astonishing , convictions. it's astonishing, actually, that we don't know for sure how many. there were . only sure how many. there were. only 93 have had those convictions overturned. and this is a mass problem . and the only way problem. and the only way i think we're going to be able to over overcome it is to have a mass solution . the process that mass solution. the process that we're going through

one of those portrayed in the series was a conservative politician, james — now lord — arbuthnot whoe's a huge challenge at the post office, changing the culture. campaigners have complained about bonuses paid to post office management and accused the publicly owned company of foot dragging over compensation. those that know henry staunton say he'd been keen to speed this up, but with an ongoing public enquiry and demands for a wider leadership shake—up, it's possible that kemi badenoch will have more changes to make. iain watson, bbc news. we're joined now by our political correspondent harry farley. harry, how soon can we expect a new chair to be appointed? good morning. we are expecting an interim chair to be appointment shortly and recruitment will begin for more permanent replacement after that. obviously, the post office very much in the headlines at the moment and in the spotlight and there is a keenness in government to be seen to be doing something, to be proactive. we understand that the departure of henry staunton was not directly related to the post office scandal but whe

but i just wonder if i could ask you both very briefly on the 17th of december, lord arbuthnot held an andrew bridgen held a westminster hall debate. both of them i identified that the honzon of them i identified that the horizon scheme could be remotely accessed . both of them accessed. both of them identified the fact there were bugsin identified the fact there were bugs in the system and then, according to my timeline in 2017, both both in 2014. the second sight report response from the post office maintains remote access to horizon branch counts is impossible. then again, in 2017, the post office admits in court that previous assertions that remote access the horizon branch counts was impossible. how do you respond to that? when you were three, four, five, six, seven years right . calling out the fact that right. calling out the fact that remote access was possible? i just i'd like to hear how you respond to that when both the people you were talking to in parliament, when you were raising it within your groups, i just wonder if you could add some comments to it. joe should we with

we've been writing about this since 2013, and we had james arbuthnot, lord arbuthnot on with us on theox here with us yesterday, he said, the mail yesterday, and he said, the mail has the good has been fighting the good fight, it did not capture fight, but it did not capture the imagination in the the public imagination in the way that this extraordinary drama, bates, versus the post drama, mr bates, versus the post office, has done. and now finally , the post office are finally, the post office are under pressure, as are at last, fujitsu. the huge , uh, fujitsu. the huge, uh, multinational worth 150 billion. they're dodgy. it says they haven't paid a penny in compensation. >> in many ways, i love the fact that this is in the public consciousness now, because it does raise awareness of all of these computer systems on which we are increasingly reliant and how flawed they can be. and how if computer says no often there's nobody to talk to. we've all been there. if you haven't seen the drama, there are these scenes in which the postmasters are on the helpline the it are on the helpline t

. >> mp or former mp, >> it's another mp or former mp, lord arbuthnot.shire who fought fought doggedly now my fought doggedly for his now my constituents. joe hamilton was one of them. um, to really expose this scandal. yeah. >> well bravo . >> well done. bravo. >> well done. bravo. >> and rebecca, also, thank you for explaining how you say his surname, because i've been saying it wrong all day. mine is idris elba for calling an idris elba for calling for an immediate ban zombie and immediate ban on zombie and machete knives, and also for generally his work towards trying violence. trying to end knife violence. obviously, more to obviously, there's a lot more to be banning be done than just banning knives, is somewhere we knives, but it is somewhere we can suggestion. >> fabulous suggestion. well, i'm to rebecca i'm going to give it to rebecca andldns i'm going to give it to rebecca and idris elba. great actor and and idris elba. great actor and a great knife crime. a great campaign knife crime. a worrying epidemic in this country. your union jackass. >>

we've got lord arbuthnot. yeah. and we've got kevin jones. honourable man. he london and he was minister for london and minister business up until minister for business up until the reshuffle. and now who the last reshuffle. and now who knows why. you know this , this knows why. you know this, this was up. but the other was thrown up. but the other issue too, because i knew we were talking this, i spoke were talking about this, i spoke to night. to somebody last night. somebody said me, the first they said to me, the first thing they should done is if the money should have done is if the money had gone missing, found out where had gone, they where the money had gone, they did check some subpost master's bank accounts right ? and they bank accounts right? and they couldn't find the money there . couldn't find the money there. so why didn't they check check the accounting system inside the post office to find if the money had bounced back because they couldn't find out there wasn't . couldn't find out there wasn't. >> keep lying to people sayin

. >> so mine is lord james arbuthnot, who's a steady, fast supporter of the postmaster orders, and he'se and that we're still talking about it. it's not only his activism with regard to the postmasters that i want to highlight. he's also a good old fashioned tory mp who backs constituents, and we backs his constituents, and we need these kind of people to be in the public eye at the moment. nice to big up an mp for change. >> and how about you, adrian? your headline hero. >> yeah, heroes actually i usually give a hero when usually like to give a hero when i on the show. just people i come on the show. just people who make and i'm who don't make the news and i'm choosing the european farmers mass protests all over europe berlin, france, toulouse, montpellier . all these cities montpellier. all these cities are at a standstill from farmers basically gathering together and protesting against the climate change targets, which is destroying their profession . destroying their profession. ian.and destroying their profession. ian. and as your one of your colleagues who comes on, one of my coll

have to recognise that there are lots in mpslords , who arbuthnot have to recognise that there are lots in mpslords , who did uthnot now in the lordsael crick, you very, michael crick, thank you very, very about very much and we will talk about this again probably just next week um, right. it's week. anyway. um, right. it's time reveal now today's time to reveal now today's greatest union jack greatest britain on union jack carson . right. let's start carson. right. okay, let's start with the greatest britons. please, harriet. >> what is this? the jacket . >> what is this? the jacket. >> what is this? the jacket. >> your greatest britain. who is youn >> your greatest britain. who is your. person you've your. who's the person you've nominated? your greatest president. >> my britain president. » my >> so my greatest britain at the moment. that moment. following on from that great interview , um, is alan great interview, um, is alan bates. yes who has campaigned for over 20 years, who's a post office man, and he's campaigned and been just gone on and on on everybody else lost interest with the story, thought it was never going come an