i'm joined by doctor tessa dunlop and also gawain towler. let's start with you, gawain.ballpark, as it were. seems to me that these conversations around pacs hove into view normally when the tories are in very choppy water. is this any different this time around? >> not in the slightest. i mean, people talk about reform having an electoral ceiling. the experts say the ceiling is 20%, 25%, 30%, whatever. in the last couple of weeks, we have seen the tories dip to 18% below 20. what is their floor? this is the question i want to know what is the tories floor? and the tories can see that and they can see the polling. every single pollster now has put reform ahead of them. and so in desperation you're hearing comments from senior tories saying we must have a pact, we must have it soon. but what about the reason they want it soon is so they can kill off reform rather than not compete with them. >> what about a pact where there isn't really a pact where you can pretend it's not a pact, but it is a pact. >> i can't believe it's not pact. >> yeah, exactly. the sort of pact, for