and that's a proposition europe could never, ever accept. >> anne applebaum, you know poland very well. you spent a lot of time that is the frontline state. what how do you think poland views this? exactly the point franz was making, which is, uh, is nato's article five guaranteed dead? because at the end of the day, the question the heart of nato was, will. will the american president defend a small european country that gets attacked by russia? and i don't think one could say clearly the answer is yes anymore. >> yeah. so so frans timmermans is right that the the power of nato was as much psychological as military. you know, it's an organization that was a deterrent that the russians were afraid to attack europe. they were afraid to attack any country in europe. actually, you know, nowadays you can attack countries without them being on your borders. and they were afraid to do so because of the threat of mass response. um, i do think it's conceivable that europe could create that same kind of threat. it's funny, what we lack is not military. it's not men. it's not money. what's lacke

anne applebaum is a staff writer at the atlantic and a pulitzer prize winning historian. and frans timmermans is a dutch politician who served as the executive vice president of the european commission. and let me ask you, the wall street journal editorial page, uh, said that the only winner in the in the friday, uh, dustup in the white house was vladimir putin. would you agree? >> i think it's certainly true that the presence of putin could be felt in that room. putin has a very strong vision of europe and of the world, one that he's nurtured since 1989, when he and his comrades in the kgb were burning documents while the rest of the world was celebrating the fall of the berlin wall. he wants u.s. influence in the world pulled back. he wants russian power in europe, especially in eastern europe in particular reinstated. he wants russia to be a superpower again. he sees in trump the possibility that finally, his dream will be realized. trump also, of course, has a dream. he has a vision of a u.s. russia. relationship. um, you know, perhaps based on economic deals, perhaps

. >> we are lucky to be joined now by anne applebaum, columnist for the atlantic. and i feel like you have been reporting out how europe has been bracing for this moment for months, if not years. tell me your thoughts now that it has come to pass. >> so greetings from vilnius. this is a country where people are very conscious of what's happening. >> in. >> washington and what's happening in ukraine. >> i think. >> all of ukraine's. >> allies, and. >> all of not just europeans who have a border with russia or who are near russia. europeans who understand that russia. >> has coordinated. sabotage attacks across. >> the continent, engages. >> in sometimes daily. >> cyber attacks on. >> different kinds of institutions, infrastructure all over europe, whose country, whose propagandists constantly threaten europe and constantly repeat, you know, threats to, to, to bomb or even nuke european cities. >> i think everybody felt today a. >> kind of chill. >> understanding that. >> this was a very different united states. i mean, i'd like to draw all of your attention to the r

because if you talk to a lot of experts about this, people like anne applebaum and so on, you know, thatnited states is just going to let the russians roll into kyiv and take over that country, obviously vladimir putin is not going to stop there. he's going to want to poke and prod in other parts of europe, and maybe even tempt the nato alliance to push back. if he goes into one of the baltic states, one of the weaker nations in the baltic states. and so, you know, to me it is playing with fire. and, you know, maybe, maybe they will put the pieces back together again. perhaps they'll get this deal going again. it sounds as though the brits, the french, are trying to get trump and zelensky back at the negotiating table. but what took place on friday almost felt like a stunt. and a lot of people are saying maybe it was a stunt. this was just trump playing to the cameras. yeah. and so if you're in a situation like that, if you're zelensky, how do you negotiate in a situation like that? it is very, very difficult. and i know, ali, you've done some great reporting over in ukraine to think abo