and draghi's stimulus plan helps insulate europe from political chaos in spain. we begin with the big issue. it could be the moment of truth for the bull market. >> it has been the graveyard of investment strategists for the last two or three years. >> i certainly think they have a right to be a bit cautious or unnerved at this point. it certainly seems the bias for rates is upward. >> the bond market has been in a 30-year bull trend. that has bailed out a lot of bond investors. yields keep going down and returns are good. hate to argue with him, but i think he is maybe too pessimistic about where bonds are. we will be in a 2.4% to 2.7% sort of range. >> we are in an environment where you will definitely see those bond yields head back towards to 2.6% or 2.7% level. but i am very pessimistic about the probability we can get higher than that. >> it is just a question of pace and pass. how fast is that going to happen? we don't think it is going to happen extremely fast. the path is...