what do you want these nato allies to do? >> i want them to provide ukraine the ability to defend itself. >> with weapons. >> with weapons. >> what about military personnel? >> no one is talking right now about military personnel. we are hoping that if russia sees that the west has a resolve to not let them continue their aggression russia will back down. we have got to make it painful for russia. >> but the russians don't seem -- it's making an impact on the russian economy but putin is not backing down. his popularity still goes up. >> well he's propping up russia, but the russian economy is very very poor. that's why we need to give them lethal weapons because we need to make putin understand that -- >> you want to tighten the sanctions? >> i think we should tighten the sanctions. look i think putin has killed russian democracy and if he's going to be around for another 20 or 25 years, the way the west deals with him now sets the course for the next 25 years. if we think, if we let...