released. the special counsel interviewed -- the grand jury interviewed the former vice president as part of this investigation and used contemporaneous notes the vice president had taken about those days and the days leading up to january 6. one theme described in the indictment involving the vice president's christmas day through january 6 and the interactions between donald trump and mike pence. on several private phone calls the defendant, donald trump, repeated knowingly false claims of election fraud and directly pressured the vice president to use his ceremonial role at the proceedings on january 6 to overturn the results of the election and the vice president resisted, including december 25 when the vice president called the defendant to wish them a merry christmas. the defendant turned the conversation to january 6 and his request that the vice president reject the votes. the vice president said, as the vice president had in previous conversations, i do not have the authority...

change things and people? ask themselves, is this the type of government we want moving forward? host: what are your thoughts about the third paragraph of the indictment, or the special counsel notes very high up in this indictment that donald trump had a right to challenge the 2020 election results, make a point of that? "the defendant had a right, like every american, to speak publicly about the election, and even to claim falsely that there had been outcome determination fraud during the election and that he had won. he was also entitled to formally challenge this by seeking recounts or audits, or filing lawsuits challenging ballots and procedures. indeed, in many cases, the defendant did pursue these methods. however, his efforts were uniformly unsuccessful. shortly after election day, the defendant also pursued unlawful means of discounting legitimate votes and subverting the election results, and that is

-- nobody is above the law. host: that's gary in new hampshire. this 45-page, four count indictment being unsealed yesterday and announced late afternoon. you can find it and read it for yourself on the c-span website, c-span.org. just from the opening introductions the special counsel writes, despite having lost the defendant was determined to remain in power. for more than two months following election date on november 3, 2020, the defendant spread lies that there had been outcomes flawed in the election and that he had won. these claims were false and the defendant knew they were false but the defendant repeatedly and widely disseminated them anyway to make his false claims appear legitimate, create an atmosphere of mistrust and anger, and eroded public faith in the election. he pursued unlawful means of discounting legitimate votes and subverting election results. in so doing, the perpetrator used dishonesty, fraud, and deceit to impair and defeat the lawful federal...