at columbia university, dr. jeffrey sachs and financier and "morning joe" economic analyst steve ratner joins us as well. good to have you both onboard. they picked apart the word ponzi scheme to the point where he had to go there. >> yes. i don't know that ponzi scheme is his biggest problem. because you can always say something is a ponzi scheme but then you can go back and say let's fix it. >> it's that he didn't take it to the next level from the get-go and now we have to back track and try and take it to the next level. >> i don't know how many levels actually, watching him last night, i don't know how many levels. >> stop. >> no, i know. this is very legitimate. >> okay. >> after listening to him talk last night in detail i do not know how many levels there are to rick perry. but i do know this. let me finish my thought please. >> please. >> i do know this. the phrase "ponzi scheme" is not rick perry's biggest problem. the word that he's going to have to wrestle with...