day on the backs of working teachers who pay that salary and of course he can say life's not fair because if you're him, life's pretty fair for him. but life's not fair for the single mother in camden who has been waiting for three decades for new jersey to fix that public school. and they haven't done it because it's in the grip of the teachers union. good teachers, awful union. >> you say awful union. >> yeah. >> any time you attack a teachers union, the response is that you're going after the teachers themselves. >> yeah, well, that's why i say good teachers. >> how do you separate that message, though? how do you get that message out? not just to the voters of new jersey, but also, also to the teachers? >> well, because you keep saying it over and over again. and they'll mischaracterize you and mischaracterize me. when i talk to working teachers around the state. and i say i'd like to pay you more for your excellence. i'd like to make sure that we don't guarantee somebody a...

after three years and one day even if they're not performing. i want you to be held accountable. great teachers have no worry about being held accountable. and what i say to them all the time about their union is, you should have a union as good as you are and you don't. >> and by the way, let's say for the record here, not all unions, mike barnicle are created equally. there are some governors who are reformers who are able to team up with unions and actually get things done. >> well, state by state. >> yeah. >> teachers unions change state by state, massachusetts, the teachers unions are much more amenable to improving education at a local level than some other state unions appear to be. what is the issue here in new jersey at the union level? not at the teacher level, at the union level with regard to vouchers? >> they have made it very clear to me and to the legislature that that is an unacceptable alternative. and they will fight in every way they can. >> all vouchers. >> all...