obviously, the testimony regarding the electoral count act is important, i don't know if that is enough here, but that would be where the center point would be. i think the best path for the justice department would actually to be target eastman, go after him and tried to get him to plead. he had a lot of one-on-one conversations and would be able to provide that testimony for crime fraud, et cetera. >> jill, let's talk about that for a moment, the point that renato just brought up. after the insurrection, eastman sent this email to rudy giuliani asking to be put on a part in this. what is the fact that there is a so-called pardon list circulating around after january six, tell us about the mindset of all of these people that were involved. i know that people are towards the end of any presidency are accustomed to asking for pardons, but the way that this email sounded was very specific in saying a part in this is still in the works, in particular, through the events of january the...

let's discuss this with renato mariotti, a former columnist for political and jill wine-banks, watergate prosecutor and msnbc legal analyst. it's good to have you with us. joe, i would like to start with you and get your reaction to both hearings this week. do you think that the committee successfully outlined the extent to which donald trump and his allies like john eastman knew and were aware that what they were doing was illegal? >> i think that they have done a brilliant job, that they left no doubt for any person who was watching, any person that cared about the facts, that they knew that they were lying, they knew they were violating the law, that they were part of a much broader conspiracy to overturn the election than just january six. this is part of the entire scheme, not just the big lie, not just the violence, but the calls the georgia, all the other efforts made to other states to get them to issue fixed eighths of electors, all of that and then the most searing...

the u.s. attorney. i think that is a losing argument for donald trump. >> renato mariotti, let's talk about the evidence collected here. the committee faced a months long legal battle to secure john eastman's emails. i would know from your experience, the sheer amount of legal footwork being done by the committee and the staff behind the scenes, is this kind of evidence worth the wait and what we have seen come out of it so far? >> i think so. i think with eastman, the committee has to be commended that they want the extra mile. we heard all through the hearings about that ruling from judge carter out in california, the federal judge who made findings. he issued a remarkable ruling, finding that it was more likely than not, obviously a lower standard than a criminal case, a significant finding that there was criminal activity between trump and eastman, and released emails, including some under the crime fraud exception. to me, in many ways, the committee is doing the work that you...