boston abolitionist. the hymn "the battle hymn of the republic" is an abolitionist hymn. what i did not know, the tune of the hymn is a southern hymn created by african-americans. the earliest use is as a southern camp meeting song in 1807. the camp meetings were especially popular in the south, because backwoods southern communities, small communities many people did not have enough manpower or wood or ability to create churches. thousands of people, they would have weeklong camp meetings. every quarter or so, they would gather in the forest or woods. and that is where they would be spiritually regenerated. these camp meetings were baptists and methodists, and at most of the meetings is where hymns were sung. evangelists understood the power of hymnity. they understood the most powerful way to commune with, to emotionally interact with god or christ is through song. many of these ministers when they would hear a song being sung at the camp meetings, they would write it down and publish it in hymn books and circulate it. at these camp meetings, slaves blacks and whites wo

in the white audiences the abolitionist douglass knew the perceptions were all too well.for some it had been an object and in the inevitable social and economic ruin with any form of emancipation. for others it signaled a massacre racial nightmare made real. yet this didn't change the conviction of the haitian revolution. >> thank you for reading that. i want to ask you a question about the colonization. you devote four chapters in this book and so could you summarize why it was so attractive to so many different kinds of people? >> in the beginning going back to the 18th century, the colonization and the minds of the people in terms of simply returning africans slaves that had been born and brought from africa returning them back to their continents their continent continents of for example samuel hopkins, the descendent who was a pretty j. jonathan edwards motivated by the disinterested benevolence when he moved in 1772 newport rhode island and was anti-slavery he wanted to do something about slavery but he tried to make it possible for those that were free to return to

but after the war it was very dangerous for elizabeth to be outspoken about abolitionist opinions and to have of a perceived northern sympathy. she was the recipient of many death threats from her neighbors, confederate detectives followed her wherever she went. but nevertheless, elizabeth decided to form a union spy ring in the confederate capital of richmond, and she began recruiting people from all walks of life. one of them was her brother by the name of john van lew and i had the great pleasure of calculating with the great grand -- of connecting with the great grandson of one of john's towers, and he told me -- daughters, and he told me incredible things. and just to give you a little taste of that, it mostly had to do with family's hardware businessment they had a prominent hardware business for years in richmond and one of the most impressive buildings in the state of virginia. and he used the hardware business as a front for his spy ring in a way. he would take blank invoices and purchase orders and fill them out as if they were regular business documents but every number he

written and documentary, the abolitionist advisor. with that background we are all looking forward to an incredibly exciting secession and the floor is yours. >> our goal is to have a conversation. you're all part of this conversation. conversation. before we launch into this informal discussion we often have dinner together at least once a year, the union league fa. he we will come down and share a couple dozen oysters and have conversations about everything and anything. on the occasion of the completion of the trilogy would be a nice sort of spirit to attempt to evoke. maybe some oysters might help. i'm going to turn the floor over to john stopper to introduce my friend and mentor. >> so we will hopefully allow david to give us a summary not only of the problems slavery made of emancipation but of the trilogy and briefly of his public life. i we will start with a very brief summary. as most of you no, the sterling professor emeritus at yale university has one virtually every award that our story and can when win including the pulit

it was the abolitionist movement that prompted a secessionist movement. the white man's support for abolition is based on the believe that no man can own another. that negroes who want to escape -- would want to escape slavery if given the opportunity. the pre-civil war narrative of evolution was of white activists providing resources to help during runaway -- daring runaway refugees escape oppression culminating in the figure of abraham lincoln as the great emancipator. without diminishing these important roles, recent scholarship has developed a much more complex relationship where free blacks opened their homes to refugees, and provided boots on the ground knowledge and guidance to provide intelligence to refugees and their white partners. the organization of african american communities follow the one vehicle most commonly available to them in an oppressive and white dominated society in washington, d.c. and that was the churches. in the city of washington, the power of the church community was potent because of the interests of congressman. they live

it was the abolitionist movement that prompted a secessionist movement. the white man's support abolition is based on the believe that no man can own another. the pre-civil war narrative of evolution was of white activists providing resources to help refugees escape oppression culminating in the throat for your of abraham lincoln as the great emancipator -- the figure of abraham lincoln as the great emancipator. without diminishing goes,rthothose, we can talk about free blacks. the organization of african american communities follow the one vehicle most commonly available to them in an oppressive and white dominated society in washington dc and that was the churches. in the city of washington, the power of the church community was quoted because of the interests that protect -- potent because of the interests of congressman. those helps to drive legislative movements. among the most prominent of the african-american churches on the african-american methodist churches, 19th street baptist church, ashbury and 15th street presbyterian. it is good to have two

tells the story of a socialite, a farm girl and abolitionist and a widow who became spies during the civil war. the women in the sub title including bell body who work for the confederacy and elizabeth and emma who were union operatives inch keeping with her other books the tale is extensively researched and clearly written. she is feature ever corrector to smithsonian magazine's history blog and -- a native of philadelphia she now lives in new york city with her husband and two african gray aparts, poe and dexter. please welcome karen abbott. [applause] >> thank you first for that lovely introduction. thanks for the savannah book festival for bringing me her and thank you for coming out here today. i'm very excited to be back in savannah, one of my favorite southern towns. in fact some of the most interesting anecdotes and quote is came across during my research for the book were about savannah women. for example in december of 1864, when union general william tecumseh sherman captured savannah one local woman proclaimed, i wish a thousand pins were stuck in his bed and he was strap

you should make the mistake of thinking he was abolitionist. he certainly was an abolitionist. he did pray that god would enslave rape but it may surprise you to know that he thought slavery was worse for whites than it was for the slaves themselves which is an attitude that is hard for us to understand today that basically robert e. lee wanted nothing to do with this institution. he would try his hardest to avoid it as much as possible but what ultimately entangles robert e. lee in the institution of slavery is that his father-in-law died in 1857 and he leaves a well naming robert e. lee as executor of the estate that actually includes slaves to our dissented from mt. vernon. so on the eve of the civil war robert e. lee ann harrison estate that include slaves that george washington wanted to but could not free. it was very much one of the personal legacies the robert e. lee received from george washington. and to see how this unresolved question is wavering began turning to violence. you have to head 50 miles up the potomac river and you'll come to a little town called harpers

is it is expressed in the declaration embraced by abolitionist the constitution should be interpreted in light of it. how should judges determined the constitution and by the presumption of liberty? >> the idea when you look at political institutions, the constitution or our legal system or what have you, we start with the premise that people own their own lives and at the right to direct their own lives without arbitrary interference by somebody else. if they are harming other people that is depriving other people of the right to run their lives with his role for government to intervene to protect people. we start with the resumption people are free with certain inalienable rights and the greek government to protect those rights and if the government abuses those rights, the people can abolish that cover. that's the presumption of liberty. our basic assumptions people should be free unless there's good reason to restrict their freedom. as opposed to what i take to be the general view in the academy today, lawyers, judges and law professors are predominately in america today believe t

he certainly was not an abolitionist. he did pray for a day that god would end slavery but it may surprise now that he thought slavery was worse for whites than it was for the slaves themselves which is an attitude that is probably hard for us to understand today. basically robert e. lee wanted nothing to do with the substitution and he would try his hardest to avoid it as much as possible. what ultimately entangles robert e. lee in the institution of slavery as his father-in-law died in 1957 he leaves it will naming robert e. lee as executor of the estate that actually includes slaves who are dissented from out burn in. on the eve of the civil war robert e. lee is managing the estate that includes slaves that george washington had wanted to but could not free. it was very much the unresolved question of slavery one of the personal leg -- legacies that robert e. lee received from george washington. and to see how this unresolved question of slavery began turning to violence that have to head 60 miles upriver from arlingto

he certainly was not an abolitionist. he did pray for a day that god would end slavery but it may surprise now that he thought slavery was worse for whites than it was for the slaves themselves which is an attitude that is probably hard for us to understand today. basically robert e. lee wanted nothing to do with the substitution and he would try his hardest to avoid it as much as possible. what ultimately entangles robert e. lee in the institution of slavery as his father-in-law died in 1957 he leaves it will naming robert e. lee as executor of the estate that actually includes slaves who are dissented from out burn in. on the eve of the civil war robert e. lee is managing the estate that includes slaves that george washington had wanted to but could not free. it was very much the unresolved question of slavery one of the personal leg -- legacies that robert e. lee received from george washington. and to see how this unresolved question of slavery began turning to violence that have to head 60 miles upriver from arlingto

in fact, a lot of people say that is one of the main reasons that virginia perhaps anticipating abolitionists and antislavery sentiment in the north and in the whole area that was then still the 10 miles square would -- you would have all these red-hot abolitionists northerners -- i would say most northern legislatures were more red-hot about doing away with slavery and injustice in the south, and they did not want to increase up trees for blacks are otherwise in their states. that was politics. the retrocession left a scarred physical city. 1861, when you think about it, i mean the district of columbia was completely surrounded by slave states. it was very close that marilyn not secede from the union when the other states he came the confederacy and did. in fact, the governor of maryland, there was a human cry and the maryland legislature in 1861 to join virginia and all the other southern states. it required a special session of the maryland legislature. the governor, who was sympathetic to the union, simply refused to call a special session. guess what question mark no session, no vote, lu

there you should not make the mistake of thinking he was an abolitionist. he certainly was not. he prayed for a for a day the government and slavery. it may surprise you to no he thought slavery was worse for whites that it was for the slaves themselves which is an attitude that is probably hard for us to understand today, today, but basically he just wanted nothing to do with his institution. he tried his hardest to avoid it as much as possible. what albany to have ultimately entangles them is that his father-in-law dies in 1857 and lisa will naming robert ely executor states that actually includes include slaves who are descended from over. on the eve of the civil war robert ely is managing his states that include slaves that george washington had wanted to but cannot free. and so it was very much the unresolved question of slavery, one of the personal legacies that robert ely received from george washington. and to see how this unresolved question of slavery began turning to violence you have to just said about 50 miles of river and come to a little town called harpers ferry.

and in fact, many of the great abolitionists in our country the most famous abolitionists, they thought slavery was immoral and should be gotten rid of. but many of them actually favored colonization as well. many of them did not want blacks coming to the north and coming to the northern parts of the united states and think were viewed taking jobs away from whites. so it wasn't as if people had the view that blacks and whites could give together. very, vep few people in those days who thought that was going to be realistic. >> it's important that you remind us that lincoln's view of equality was not our own. in the lincoln/douglass debates he emphasized civil equality for all people but not social equality. >> yes. when you say all people are going to have certain rights lincoln looked at it this way, you had certain natural rights. the right to live, the right to be married, the right to have your children stay with you, the right to live a healthy life. but he didn't mean that you had the rights of a citizen. you didn't have the right to vote, to be in a jury to have certain other kin

in fact, many of the great abolitionists in our country, the most famous abolitionists, they thought slavery was immoral and slavery should be gotten rid of. but they favored colonization as well. many didn't want blacks coming to the united states and taking jobs from whites. it wasn't that many had the view that blacks and whites could live together. there were very few in those days who thought that would be realistic. >> it's important that you remind us that lincoln's view of equality was not our own in the lincoln debates. he recognized civil equality for people but not social equality. >> yes. when you say all people would have certain rights lincoln looked at it this way. you had certain natural rights, the right to live the right to be married, the right to have your children stay with you. you had the right to live a healthy life. but he didn't mean that you had the rights of a citizen. you didn't have the right to vote, to be in a jury to have certain other kinds of civil rights. so lincoln made that distinction. many founding fathers did as well. so i think that lincoln's

the earlier 19th century democratic struggles by abolitionists against slavery, by farmers against largeppressive railroads and banks and later by new trade unionists against the brutal workplace conditions of the early industrial and mining era helped mightily to make america and its middle class what it is today. what did these movements share in common? they demanded a broader d concentration of power so that the few did not determine the lives of the many. democracy works, and a stronger democracy works better for reputable, competitive markets equal opportunity, and higher standards of living and justice. generally, it brings out the best performances from people and from businesses. that is why so many people like democracy. a plutocracy-rule by the rich and powerful, on the other hand, obscures our historical quests for justice. harnessing political power to corporate greed leaves us with a country that has far more problems than it deserves. and far more solutions then it applies. it is truly remarkable that for almost every widespread need or injustice in our country, there are

2015] >> up next, american history tv, pastors, historians, church choirs and and after picturing abolitionist. reflecting on the passage of the 13th amendment that abolish slavery. the event is held at the new york avenue presbyterian church where president link when frequently worship. this group marking the 130 -- 50th anniversary of the passage of the 13th amendment is two hours.

anti-slave trader and succeeded and the abolitionists in this country were christians. >> yeah. >> you're asking a lot. you're asking for facts. >> am i wrong? >> no, you're not. but the relevance of fact has nothing to do with the rhetorical imperative here, which is to say americans have no place in the world, claim superior superiority. and he is there to stop us from feeling superior to the world. >> briefly dan, we have only a second. >> christianity went through a reformation and that's what radical islam desperately need to join the modern world. if the president had said that it would have been a huge contribution on the subject he was talking about. >> exactly right. >> if the president said that it would have been a miracle. >> all right. >>> when we come back, the vaccinate debate is a political mine field for two presidential candidates but democrats aren't immune from that controversy. we'll tell you where candidates obama and clinton stood on that issue in 2008. mayo, corn dogs...you are so out of here! ahh... the complete balanced nutrition of great tasting ensure. 24 vitam

so nineteenth century abolitionist creature named theodore parker said about the moral universe my i reaches little ways and i can't tell for sure but it looks to me like the arc of the moral universe bends towards justice and that is working got that. it worked. the civil rights movement and demanding equal rights resulting in the voting rights act of 1965, four or five months where you could see dr. king looking over president johnson's shoulders signing that into law and granting the franchise to all adults in a society is what we mean by a liberal democracy where everybody gets to vote. this data set, i will have quite a few here today shows there were none in the 1800s. it wasn't really until after the first world war and after the second world war that there was a real burst in the spread of democracy. the policy project rates democracies on the 1-10 scale. some democracies are better than others lose some are transparent, some more corrupt. in hours money doesn't influence the democratic process. [laughter] >> america slid from 8 to 7. in any case, that is a sign of moral prog

the antenna baptist female seminary in which a ship to spelman cemetery to her parents they were abolitionist and it seemed fitting to the founders to honor that tradition with the name of spelman. >>host: your recommendation for a good place to go for a good history of hbcu around the country? >>guest: a wonderful book i read called stand and prosper. i don't remember the authors but it was a wonderful study of the history of hbcu of book specifically of spelman currently out of print but you still can't find it on amazon. >>host: 324,000 students attend a hbcu around the country's 20% to earn degrees through hbcu. west virginia good morning. >> caller: good morning. i want to make a comment about the racial issues in missouri and i think the fbi should not have come down there they should have let the local police department take care of their own thing. and i. m. a white person but i gotta church as a black preacher. you have good white people and good black people. people just need to get along with each other better. it seems like they throw up racism all the time now and it should not b

mennonites but there were religious people who promoted the abolition of slavery but really look at the abolitionists they were inspired by the declaration of independence and the french revolution. so what you see in their literature and there is nothing then says that slavery is wrong. in that sense with the creator wrote of book as a guide to morality the not only is it not mentioned but how you treat your slaves it doesn't come about until enlightenment philosophers of equal treatment under the law that people should not be treated as a means to an end. so how far is that moral are bent? today's conservatives a more liberal than liberals were in the '50s. think about that. with social attitudes alone not policy but how they treat blacks and women and minorities and so forth. compared to the '50s. there is exceptions. what about terrorism? because it is in the news every day. fisker i am not sure it is the problem really are what we should be concerned about all though it could work by terrorizing government spending trillions of dollars but supposedly the real threat was to quantify political sci

so in the same way that many people say uncle tom's cabin gave way to abolitionists, many civil rights activists say that harper lee gave them the way to keep going. >> why did she not write for all of those years? >> without talking to her directly, it's hard to answer that. she was a very shy young woman from alabama who got a lot of attention and publicity when her first novel came out. her sister, who died a couple of months ago, i was able to interview him and she said that harper lee said to her i couldn't top what i had done. and it's a perfect little gem. so you could see why it might be hard. >> do you have a sense of what her life has been like? >> i think it's important to say that she's not really boo radley, not reckless in the boo radley sense. she stops giving interviews and never published a second book. and those two things collided to allow a lot of mystery and picturology to grow up around her. she has had a really, rich life with friends and lots of books and i know that when she lived in new york for most of the time she went to a lot of mets games, and she had a l

he was a 19th 19th century abolitionist preacher named theodore parker who said the moral universe my eye reaches but little ways and i can't tell for sure but it looks to me like the arc of the moral universe bends towards justice and that is where king got that. and in fact it works. the civil rights movement in the demanding of equal rights resulting in the voting rights act of 1965. for five months later you can see king standing over president johnson's shoulder signing that into love. granting the franchise to all adults in society is what we mean by a liberal democracy where everyone gets to vote. this particular dataset shows there were none in 1800. in fact it wasn't until after the first world war and the second world war where there was a real burst in the spread of democracy. the policy project rates democracy on a scale of one to 10. some are more transparent and some are more corrupt. fortunately in our spiny does not influence the democratic process. [laughter] i think america slid from an aide eight to a seven. in any case that is a sign of moral progress. if you think

you go back to the abolitionist movement that was led by evangelical christian pastors. you know, the sad thing about this megyn, is today's prayer breakfast was really a great event. darryl walt walt tlop, that was overshadowed by the president talking about how faith is a weapon. faith is not a weapon. what we see is isis is using weapons to kill christians and other religious minorities in the middle east. and as marc was saying the president cannot bring himself to say that. >> harkening back to slavery and horrible, horrible things were committed as slavery was going on, slavery itself and subjected to it. do you think it's fair for him to bring that up to get americans understand what isis is, what it is doing? >> right. i don't think there's a comparison. are there things that have been done in the past under the mask of religion? absolutely. and most christians, almost all christians universally denounced that type of behavior whether it was the crusades a thousand years ago or slavery in this country 150 years ago. because it cannot -- it's not called for in scr

the world except for the colony of connecticut, where the people hide behind god, but are really abolitionist criminals. he did not use the word criminals, but it was that kind of readiness -- prejudice. you can imagine the attitude that new englanders had towards southerners and southerners had toured new england. what held the united states together after 1783? it was very fragile, believe me. and national debt. $25 million. a common language. and the pride in having defeated the strongest military, and especially naval, power in the world. well, from where was congress going to govern this country? we had a constitution. it was called the articles of confederation. it may be states supreme over the federal government. it was ratified in 1781. he granted the united states of america power over foreign affairs, war, and a post office area that was it. if congress wanted money which of course it needed, it had to requisition it from the states. congress would have to tell each state what their share would be. often the money never arrived. congress had no power over commerce. no power of reve

tells the story of a socialite, a farm girl and abolitionist and a widow who became spies during the civil war. the women in the sub title including bell body who work for the confederacy and elizabeth and emma who were union operatives inch keeping with her other books the tale is extensively researched and clearly written. she is feature ever corrector to smithsonian magazine's history blog and -- a native of philadelphia she now lives in new york city with her husband and two african gray aparts, poe and dexter. please welcome karen abbott. [applause] >> thank you first for that lovely introduction. thanks for the savannah book festival for bringing me her and thank you for coming out here today. i'm very excited to be back in savannah, one of my favorite southern towns. in fact some of the most interesting anecdotes and quote is came across during my research for the book were about savannah women. for example in december of 1864, when union general william tecumseh sherman captured savannah one local woman proclaimed, i wish a thousand pins were stuck in his bed and he was strap

, because he wanted to stay away from it, we shouldn't make the mistake of thinking she was an abolitionistrtainly was not, by his father-in-law, george washington's adopted son, dies and leaves robert e. lee expecter of those estates which actually included slaves who desedgedded from mount vernon, george washington's home. so on the eve of the civil war, robert e. lee is managing slaves who had direct connections to the father of our country. >> woodruff: you write not only about the decision that he made to join the confederacy, but about decisions he made as a general. he has a reputation as a brilliant general. it's the reason both the north and the south went after him. but in the end when you look alt the decisions he made as a general, was he a great general? >> he was a brilliant military mind. what's so interesting about lee is we have this impression can of him always taking the initiative in battle, even though his forces were ottomanned and outgunned, but he never saw it that way he always thought he had no choice. he had to take a incredible risks because the odds against him

but really if you look at what they were inspired by if you looked with the abolitionist wrote about they were primarily inspired by the united states declaration of independence and french revolutions declaration of the rights of man. and so what you see in their literature is talking about of equal rights and rights were invented in the 18th century. there's nothing in biblical scripture or holy books that says that slavery is wrong. so in that sense, if the creator of the universe wrote a book that purports to be a guide to morality, how come he never mentioned that enslaving people was wrong? not only does he not mention it, he says here's all the different ways you should do it and how you should treat your slaves and so forth. so it really doesn't come about until enlightenment philosophers created the idea of equal treatment under the law, that people should never be treated as a means to an end but always end to themselves thomas jefferson, john locke and so forth came up with these ideas. so how far is the moral arc event? i claim that today's conservatives are more liberal

and of course slavery through the end of the 18th century saw the beginning of a tidal wave of abolitionists of slavery and again the states behind the curve are not doing it until the 1860s but today for the first time in history it is not legal anywhere in the world. it used to be that it was legal everywhere in the world and indeed endorsed as part of a natural order of things by the ancient greeks and just about everyone else. what would the immediate cause of the humanitarian revolution? i looked at a number of candidates and the most plausible in terms of something that happened before the humanitarian revolution was advances in printing and literacy. it was the only industry that showed an increase in productivity prior to the industrial revolutions in the 19th century and the cost of printing a book plunged in the 16th and 17th century into the result was an exponential increase in the number of books that were published in the countries and there were more people who could read them in the 18th century for the first time the majority of englishmen were literate. why should literacy

he took it to be a question that was outside of politics and was one of the adamant abolitionists in english politics. slavery itself had been abolished in british life by then, but the slave trade was very much a part of the british empire, and burke wanted it ended. he was one of the first signatories of the wilbur force petition. he certainly had no question about where or not to stand on the slavery question. and i also think that lincoln in his arguments shows the presence of both of these ways of thinking about american life. that is, lincoln in a way discovered memory in american politics. he make the case especially as president, he makes the case for understanding the american political tradition which, remember, wasn't that old at the time. four score and seven years. for understanding that tradition as an inheritance, as a kind of ancient tradition. he describes it as our ancient faith. it wasn't that ancient but he understood why it was important, why it could be helpful to understand the principles of the american republic as an inheritance and not just as an innovation.

he was one of the leading abolitionists in the congress. lincoln received a note from ashley, literally as he was writing his instructions to seward to go down to hampton roads. the note comes in from a messenger. it says, "we are in danger of losing this vote because there are rumors here that peace commissioners are in the city or are about to come to the city. can you deny this? because if you don't, we're going to lose this vote." lincoln writes a note on the back of ashley's note as follows -- "so far as i know there are no peace commissioners in the city or likely to be in it. a. lincoln." and then honest abe sent seward down the road to negotiate with these peace commissioners who aren't going to be in the city. the vote on abolition of slavery carried in the house by a margin of two votes. there is no way that would have happened without this deception by lincoln. the peace commissioners crossed the lines from lee's army into grant's at the very hour that this vote was taken. too late for the truth to be known on capitol hill. i'm g

tubman became known as the moses of her people, by african-americans and white abolitionists alike. tubman once proudly told frederick douglas that she never lost a single passenger. she was so effective that in 1856 there was a $40,000 reward ofdz for her capture in the south. she is the most famous and the most important conductor of the network of resistance known as the underground railroad. but to tubman, she was more an a kirkt of the underground railroad. she was a scout and a spy for the union army, she was active in the women's women's suffrage movement after the civil war and served aging african-americans by running a emto for the analled in auburn, new york. in 1903 she bequeathed the tubman home to the african episcopal zion church where this stands to this day. just this month i was i able to attend a meeting of the a.n.e. zion church where we honored frederick douglas and harriet tubman. the church was an important part of harriet tubman's life and was involved in the forefront of both the abolition and the civil rights movement. she was a dedicated member of the chur

of course, on the other side northern abolitionists always talk about slavery basically impoverished people except for the planners. neither one of those was correct. actually what happened was slavery didn't provide independence for all white men. it provided a good living for lots of planters come even lots of landed farmers who didn't own slaves were able to make a go of it, but partly slavery prevented those people who didn't owned land road from being able to make it economically. in north carolina one of the things that make difficult for them is that increasingly it became hard to buy land if he did have the resources. in the 1850s in this part of north carolina, the central piedmont, agriculture was become increasingly commercialized. the railroad was built through here in the 1850s, the north carolina central railroad. so you see this dramatic increase in farmers growing tobacco and also growing more week. they could sell the surplus wheat and sell tobacco to market. what happened was there was a rise in the price of land. so while there was always somewhat difficult for peo

they were abolitionists during the war, and it seemed fitting to honor that tradition with the name of spelman. and that's how spelman got its name. >> and your recommendation for a good place to go for a good history of the 106 hbcus around the country? >> there's a wonderful book that i read when i was becoming president. it's called "stand and prosper". i'm not going to be able to remember the authors right now, but it was a wonderful study of the history of hbcus. there is a book about spelman called "the story of spelman college." it is currently out of print. but you can sometimes find it on amazon through used book vendors. >> about 324,000 students attend hbcus around the country. let's go to jarrett waiting next, in west virginia. good morning. >> caller: good morning. >> you're on with dr. tatum. >> caller: i didn't see her face on the screen. i just wanted to make a comment there about the racism deal in missouri and all that going on. i think that the fbi shouldn't have come down there and neither should attorney general holder and they should have left it to the local poli

era in the 1820s when popular sovereignty became the watch word, and this was reinforced by the abolitionists, every state that has formed a state judiciary has provided for popular election of those judicial officers. and that is because the people who wrote those state constitutions believe that if you had the judges accountable to the people, not to, for instance, the governor or the political elites, that we would ensure that the judiciary would be faithful to their limited role of interpreting and applying the statutes, and constitutional provisions, and would similarly develop the common law in a way that would favor the people, not the political elites. well, this idea of popular sovereignty and responsiveness to the people, and ultimately accountability to the judge's limited role came into conflict in the progressive era with the thinking at that time, in the early 1900s, and of course, the progressive era rejected the whole idea of popular sovereignty, and in fact believed quite strongly in the rule of the people, by the elite, and by specialists, who knew better than the people and

but then there was always another wing of the criticism of slavery: the abolitionists who looked at the first group and said, "are you kidding? the problem isn't that they're not well-fed or well-clothed or--the problem is that they're slaves. and even if we had a big struggle and even if we were successful in improving the conditions of the slaves, as long as they're still slaves, it's always possible for the master to take back whatever improvements in the conditions you were able to extract from him. the way to break out is to end the institution of slavery." and there was a big struggle in the united states between these two groups. in the end, lincoln went and abolished slavery. well, it's really the same issue now, isn't it? either we work real hard to improve the conditions of working people-- their wages, their salaries, their benefits--or we say, "wait a minute. the problem isn't the conditions. the problem is that they're an employee of somebody else who's the employer. and even if we get the benefits, the employer can and will take them away." i already did that 40 minutes ag

. >> it was christians who led the abolitionist movement.y look, you have no right to judge isis? you have no right to judge al qaeda? you have no right to judge anything because you are every bit as sinful, that was the president's point? that is dorm room philosophy. for a guy who get a lot of credit for being this brilliant guy mr. president of the harvard law review that's pathetic that's mindless. >> bishop jackson was on the show early this morning and he agrees with you on the mindless part of this. take a listen. >> he fails to bring up relevant facts. this president likes to get on his high horse and lecture the rest of the country about how bad we are. i wish that he would have some negative harsh things to say to islamic terrorists about the evil things that they are doing. he just needs to try to bring the country together as one nation under god rather than many different factions under president obama. >> can't judge isis because crusades. crusades. >> let us know your thoughts and go to our facebook page this morning and weigh