done in terms of the outlook is as compared to say afghanistan or iraq more personally or more concerned with you know what sort of what it means for instability what it means for oil prices whether or not this is the sort of permanent war status that you know that you expect in the in the near future for the right one to remember when the u.s. . will shock and awe the chalabi and the pentagon estimate the cost me fifty billion dollars according to justice take us that's going to come in now a two trillion dollars so yeah of course when they start these things they always figure out that it's oh just a few billion dollars but it has a tendency to escalate quite rapidly now ron paul has called this form of perpetual warfare as you called military keynesianism do you agree and maybe explain live up by what ron ron paul is saying there what i think is actually going on is that you can look at it in terms of kennedy's fall of empires the reality is that united states after world war two was a relative basis in a much better position than we are today so the. question has been since then is h

what they do make you know in this article that none of the war funding for afghanistan or iraq are put on the defense budget these are all supplemental funding it's it's out of temporary short term funding resolutions but carl levin a senator from michigan chairman of the senate armed services committee he said wednesday that he had asked the defense department for an accurate estimate of the cost of the mission in libya since the ballpark numbers being circulated including one of nearly one billion seems too high so he's only reading in the newspapers what the war is going to cost and libya he's the head of the senate committee where of course barack obama should have gone to seek authorization for a bombing in iraq america doesn't need to get authorization to start a war anymore barack obama doesn't need to get congress to sign off on invading people and committing mass murder no more it's all good because all of this is baseball team wins in the final four well that's about the craziness of it the libyan t.v. presenter he might look crazy but so does the u.s. going to war while the

front seat. >> but he won't say it. >> he won't, because they don't want to look like this is afghanistan or iraq. but this is what's interesting about trying to figure out barack obama and assess him. what a lot of republicans are saying, we haven't seen the pluck moments from the president. so this behind the scenes work that we're all talking about, the careful diplomacy, the deciding, hey if you're going to move into an arab country, you have to have a lot of people, all of that doesn't happen in public, therefore they have to make the case at the white house and it's easier for the republicans to criticize. >> that speaks to the question of prerogative. we heard what the president sounded like as a canned dad and as a president. if you're president, you want to have the prerogative to do what is right and the congress wants to be consulted. will be consensus on that? >> probably not. hillary clinton said this was a humanitarian dister that was averted, they had to move quickly, benghazi was about to fall, there could have been a massacre of thousands of people and in these particular moments

intervention you have europe supporting the intervention so certainly this is different than iraq or afghanistan in the past to turn in numbers don't necessarily justify a cause i mean you have the arab resolution arab league constantly pushing for tougher action against israel and what israel is doing and for example of a palestinian in gaza and the other areas and you don't see the united states stepping up and that in fact we've consistently abstained or voted against any sort of action on that so how do you just. i had one no country i mean you had countries that could have done that. russia and china could have done that if they felt that way and i think listen you have to base some of this on the leader's remarks as crazy as people may believe khadafi is on either side of this issue he said and made a threat to the people in benghazi specifically and said you know we will not spare anyone and when you make a threat like that in all the world leaders are meeting at the united nations it puts a lot of pressure on them to step in before there's a genocide kind of activity and certainly the u.

appears things become very different when you if nato goes into libya could become another afghanistan or iraq a long drawn out war. that there's a lot of officers you know it's difficult to compare here. because libya after all is a north african country its landscape is not as complex as afghanistan where you never know from behind which rock you're going to get shot and he has no such rocks but has plenty of underground fortifications firing positions and traps that gadhafi has had time to build over his tenure therefore it will be no easy stroll for any investor well that any conditions under which you would support foreign military intervention in libya could go fuck facts that's all only facts on the table of the un security council saying that weapons were used against peaceful civilians in libya or heavy military machinery was used against humanitarian targets may force the security council to consider measures more substantial than twinkle sanctions against the regime the thing is we don't have any facts we have reports from d.c. c.n.n. and other media featuring some machine gun are f

out their subversive activities al-qaeda people have already shown what they're capable of in afghanistan or iraq and other regions if they continue those actions would we hope for the opposite of course and they are doing their best a good man to it then the chaos will most likely go intense the situation will be the same as in so while yet. and how would you describe the situation those cities which are regularly making headlines like benghazi i'm sad my skirmishes took place in the regions region oil and nice small part of libya. i can't say anything about the state of martial law i simply don't know whether that's the case or not where i'm sure about is that the official organizations are in charge of oil field security that's their main task is the source of libya's riches and libyans will protect them you can say the libyan simply must protect their oil as it is essential for them. here to carly a possible adoption of a un resolution i'm unable to be is being discussed as what do you think the u.n. security council worker of a state supported by the us russia which is against foreign interv

get very heavily involved i don't personally expect by the way that we're going to be out of afghanistan or iraq for a very long time so the prospect of having another war in both of their strengths and he is very dubious professor i certainly don't think you're alone in that perspective especially when it comes to afghanistan and iraq but are we faced with sort of catch twenty two here i mean when you have situations like vietnam like iraq thanks to your help in terms of vietnam finding out that so so so many of the pauses and the weight of the war was carried out was actually not as it was built for the u.s. people is it difficult to justify the so-called just humanitarian interventions when you can lie if you're going to target a version especially going to unilateral if you were less than the u.n. security council needle for example is basically i think the u.n. was right in describing that as a crime against the peace because aggressive war the only conditions were a u.n. security council with recession which they do have in this particular case i have to say but recent times no humanitaria

a very heavily involved i don't personally expect by the way that we're going to be out of afghanistan or iraq for a very long time so the prospect of having another war involved in their strikes me is a very dubious proposition i certainly don't think you're alone in that respect especially when it comes to afghanistan and iraq but sort of catch twenty two here i mean when you have situations like vietnam like iraq thanks to your help in terms of vietnam finding out that so so so many of the causes and the way that the war was carried out was actually not as it was built for us people if they're difficult to justify the so-called just humanitarian interventions when you're feeling like you know if you go to church going to venture especially going to unilaterally you were listening u.n. security council meeting for example is basically i think the u.n. was rated describe it as a crime against peace because aggressive war the only conditions were and you had security council authorization which they do have in this particular case they have to say but recent times no humanitarian intervention

yes it is a war but in terms with the american people they are not looking at it like they do afghanistan or iraq you know the american people in fact a new poll came out today is that seven out of ten americans support these airstrikes because in order to protect civilians and see it as a humanitarian mission i think that's where some of the debate is whether it really will end up being just a humanitarian mission or not do you think it's going to hurt obama politically helpful politically in fact there's been talk from both the right of the left which means i think you have to insult the right because basically they see. seen him do two things one get international legitimacy and number two get other people to be a part of the burden americans are tired of doing most with the heavy lifting by themselves and he's definitely getting a lot of fire from those i have learned thank you so much for joining me tonight. now we have even more violence in the middle east today a small bomb exploded at a crowded bus stop outside jerusalem's main bus station today killing one woman and leaving at least twen

doesn't want to equate what he regards as a smaller time limited mission with iraq and afghanistan i know it's not iraq orafghanistan but that doesn't mean it's not a war you know it's not iraq or afghanistan but that doesn't mean that we should look to the two conflicts that we've been boiled ourselves in as cautionary tales but what could happen in libya if anything we should know by now that war is a really quick or easy and those who consider themselves generally anti-war but support military intervention in libya under the guise of humanitarianism i think you can take a deeper look nobody wants to see innocent civilians killed but opposing this war does not mean that you're choosing to let them die if this was solely a humanitarian mission to protect innocent lives then we'd be intervening in yemen and bahrain in syria in the ivory coast and that's just to name a few if it were so cut and dry we wouldn't see the world divided on whether or not to support it and. it is divided russia china germany the african union these countries are not on board and no matter who alternately takes command from this

. >> is there any guarantee that libya will not disintegrate like afghanistan or eventually iraq. what i see in the interim transitional matter is an organizational matter that wants to only be there. it wants to transition to a democratic libya. none of us want to see libya divided. >> a reminder of the headlines this hour, president obama has said the libyan leader is greatly weakened and will ultimately step down. he did not rule out providing military help to the libyan rebels. the level of radioactive iodine in the fukushima nuclear plant is 3000 times the legal limit. let's turn to the situation in libya. have been appointed by the libyan transitional council. i asked him about his recent trip to libya. >> it was a grueling trip through egypt. i traveled by car. there was a very good trip for me, a learning experience with the opportunity to view firsthand the devastation that has taken place in various parts of libya. and also, most importantly, i had the opportunity to spend some quality time with members of the council. i must say that they got it together. it is a war zo

guarantee that libya will not disintegrate into a situation similar to that of somalia or afghanistan or eventually iraq even? >> i very much hope that won't happen. i don't believe it should happen. what i see is just that, an organization that wants to only be there for the interim. it wants a transition to a democratic libya, and above all, it wants a national libya. none of us want to see a libya divided. we want a whole libya. >> you're watching "bbc news." the headlines for you. president obama has said the libyan leader colonel gaddafi will ultimately step down. he said he didn't rule out providing military support to the libyan rebels. meanwhile, world foreign ministers meeting in london agreed that military action would continue in libya until colonel gaddafi fully complies with the u.n. resolution to protect civilians. let's get more of the developments in libya now. i'm joined by omar, who has been appointed by the libyan transitional council as an advisor on foreign affairs. thank you very much for joining us. i understand that you've just arrived back in washington having been traveling the

the mess that's been made in afghanistan the terrible disaster that was caused in iraq really shouldn't or any more countries in the middle east it's a model today's troubles african nations won't want to impose their government which is still ruling. american occupation of iraq really. help. the middle east. and american and european government shouldn't look for backing at home to a million marched in london even the invasion of iraq in two thousand and three and times have changed this is now austerity britain are starting another war factored into the budget british troops are already fighting an unpopular war in afghanistan it's highly unlikely the conflict has the appetite for again getting involved in someone else's struggle battling as they are at home in the face of deep cuts rising unemployment and it's unlikely to be popular in sight this building the ministry of defense has to slash spending by more than seven and a half billion dollars in the next four years it's an intervention britain would find hard to afford on many levels your and it's our duty. so a rebel leaders in east

nobody is going to declare a war against afghanistan or iraq or libya. so we now have been so careless for the past 50 or 60 years that we have as a congress and especially the house we have reneged on our responsibilities. we have avoided our prerogatives by saying we have the control. we have control of the purse. we have control of when we are supposed to go to war and yet the wars continue. they never stop and yet we are going to be completely brought down to our knees. we can't change afghanistan. people who are bragging about these changes, you know, even if you could you're not supposed to. you don't have the moral authority. you don't have the constitutional authority. so i would say the sooner -- the sooner -- mr. jones: 30 more seconds. mr. paul: i would say the sooner the better. we can come home, this process -- under the law it says you should start bringing troops home within 30 days. this allows up to the end of the year after this would be passed. but this needs to be done. a message needs to be sent, and someday we have to wake up and sa

look we whether or not we can win in iraq or afghanistan is not the point the point is a private in the army is not. charged with releasing that information there's been and the damage goes well beyond just what he released about iraq and afghanistan i keep going back to the damaging information he released on the part on the king of yemen who has been working with us and one of the most damaging cable was you keep killing al qaeda and i'll keep taking credit for it because of course in the muslim world everything has to have a. face on it and he's been taking credit for us killing al qaeda in yemen and now he's been outed he's going to be a target for of al qaeda he's going to be a target of terrorist organizations muslim brotherhood throughout the middle east because of this idiot manning now i know i've been stuck in the studio for a while but was he manning was actually charged i mean you knew there was those part of the information that he put in the lady gaga allegedly put out here in the city doesn't this get to the bigger i said it waiting doesn't it get to the bigger issue whic

to help them topple gadhafi they say they don't want ground forces they don't want another iraq or afghanistan just airstrikes weapons maybe a little help in the form of a no fly zone everything is it's not that easy something that the us media seems to be completely missing as they paint the picture of international intervention as a necessity for people words of u.s. and british officials who call it a moral imperative it is another military conflict really in the world and specifically in america's best interest and why does this civil war call for our attention while we stood by and watched conflicts in africa go on for years here to discuss it with me is michael lieberman a fellow at the truman national security project michael thanks so much for being here now let's first talk about what a no fly zone it would actually mean right there's a lot of talk about it rumors swirling around now we have you know the libyans are calling for one but as general mattis said today you know this is not just telling planes not to fly this would be a military operation and it's a serious military operati

every three or four months and now every time we go out we are must see somebody from from iraq or afghanistan or from the first gulf war some people join the armed services in hopes of having financial stability once they're done with their duty unfortunately some of them end up here on the streets now here in los angeles there are more than forty thousand people without a home on a daily basis many of those are better ends and that problem is just expected to get even worse as more and more service members return from the war to an economic situation with very few job prospects if you join the military for a paycheck you do it the wrong kind of the wrong place for the cordoba a marine served four tours in iraq as he helps homeless vets cordoba admits that while some recruiters are concerned about the future of the young men and women joining the armed forces others simply see them as numbers well there's a cliche saying in the military every soldier says my recruiter lied to me it's something that we all know you know the reality is you're less likely to find a job when you get out of the mi

or both of us are wrong. [laughter] it is definitely a time of soul- searching. at the same time, we have found out these are not cakewalks, as they were billed in iraq or afghanistan. for that reason, we just have to make that judgment. >> that make a correction, there are two muslim members of congress, the other one being andrea carson. npr's bumpy ride ahead. >> it is clear that we would survive. >> that is ron schiller, formerly the head of fundraising. he was taped speaking to fake muslim people. he had some unpleasant thing to say about the republican party, tea party -- said they were racist. after the story broke, the ceo resigned. i offered nina to take -- the chance take the week off. she wants to defend her company. >> i cannot defend the top executives and at cannot necessarily even defend the board, but i can defend the product. there is a reason we are the only news organization, other than fox, with a growing audience. it is because of our product which is straight-shooting, factual, and we spend an enormous amount of money gather news from around the world. judge us by the product. the people in the newsroom were probably more mortified than anyone

up that way, whether it was packing for summer vacation and instead i go to katrina or whether it's iraq or afghanistane deal. and part of me sitting here, i'm thinking of our people in tripoli and benghazi and part of me would like to be in libya right now. there's a -- once you've done it and you know all our correspondents in the field, you want to be there with them. and you want to be on this story. >> jimmy: it's crazy at this time, right now. i think -- am i counting wrong? are we in three wars? >> we're in three. it's early yet. we've got some time. [ laughter ] >> jimmy: i mean, what is happening? can you take me through -- like -- >> so you got your iraq winding down. you got your afghanistan nobody loves, and the greatest americans we've ever fielded are over there. you know? >> jimmy: yeah. >> staff sergeants making no money at all, getting a combat bonus, supporting a family back home, slogging through it, and then we have fired, as of today, 162 cruise missiles from mostly u.s. navy ships and submarines offshore. so while they are not fighting on the ground, remember this is fuelers, pilo

we will not foreclose on service members' homes while they are in combat, while they're in afghanistan or iraq, we've had banks do hundreds and hundreds of foreclosures on our men and women in uniform. there are needs for these programs and yet we're conveniently forgetting those facts. lastly this bill, with all due respect, has been poorly drafted in a meaningful way. this bill, if adopted, would prohibit all voluntary agreements between parties to stop these foreclosures. and i understand what the targets of my republican colleagues are, but the bill is drafted so broadly it would prevent the banks and the f.h.a. and the homeowner and the servicer to come to a voluntary agreement. private enterprise has been something that my colleagues used to encourage and here we have voluntary agreements that will be prohibited by this bill. and i do not think that is the intent of the gentleman, however that is the actual impact of his legislation and i have an amendment more specifically to deal with that at a later time. but we have to slow down the foreclosure process to put a floor under this econo

military other journalists who work independently in war zones like iraq or afghanistan have been targeted and eliminated by their coalition forces meaning western forces meaning nino you know written etc because they've been reporting more honestly but what happens so it's impossible to be an independent journalist to some degree it's just it's really an information propaganda war serving a very imperious to gender at this point i wanted to talk to you i know that you've done a lot of reporting and africa from what i understand but you know war reporting and reporting in tough regions there can be a lot of similarities i'm wondering your thoughts on exactly what's going on in libya in terms of the challenges that these reporters are facing i mean you talked about some of them you know being embedded the challenges reporting fairly but what about you know other stuff the safety and other things that they deal with. well i work in afghanistan and congo uganda in ethiopia as war reporter each of which were conflict zones at the time in particular afghanistan is well known in the congo it can

trips to israel to beef up foreign policy chops a man or stand obviously israel's very close ally but foreign policy chops go to iraq or afghanistan and so i feel yeah you know i tend to have a very different view on all things israel and jewish than to most other progressives and a deal of good and you know all i would really say is that. like you said israel is a close ally i think that even going there is very disingenuous i mean really what is sarah pailin going to gain early learn her change about her world view by hanging out by the wheeling while for a few hours you know i find it completely disingenuous i'm with you there david thanks so much for joining us and of course we'll have to rehash there when we do get a clear picture of who is playing around banks. now before we go tonight it's time for our tweet of the day representative ileana ross left in the chair of the house foreign affairs committee has decided to follow him to distinguish footsteps of newt gingrich and change her position on war in libya as well so we're wondering what would the alone to show tweets about are you running for president being a flip floppe

are estimated to be afflicted by post-traumatic stress or traumatic brain injury and sadly and unacceptably 7,000 veterans of iraq or afghanistanre homeless every night in this country. so if you could respond, thank you. >> well, thanks very much, senator. and, first of all, there has been an extraordinary effort, i think, to improve every aspect of battlefield medicine. all the way from the training of those and the equipping of those at the point of injury. the medical evacuation, and we have devoted -- especially with secretary gates' leadership, considerable resources keeping us within the golden hour as it's called from medivac from point of view to the field hospital. the average for last month, i think, was 44 minutes as an example. and that's despite, of course, vastly increased number of troopers on the battlefield. and much more spread out across afghanistan. the advances that the field hospitals are extraordinary, as well. they really now approach those of the major medical systems in the united states. of course, through germany, and then to the various hospitals appropriate for the injury. and then even into the v

say robert gates was talking about the future, not passing judgment on the current wars in iraq or afghanistanhris: they can say that. >> there is a time line for july for there to be a withdrawal of forces from afghanistan but it is contingent on what happens on the ground. i don't think the president, people i talk to, say that he's anxious to get out of this war. he doesn't want to lose this war, and they actually think they're making progress on the ground. >> but here's the problem. someone has to enunciate what is the mission in afghanistan? what is our strategic purpose there? even dick holbrook who had questions about it would talk about pakistan, but it's very hard to explain why we should be in afghanistan to protect our interests in pakistan. the american public doesn't understand that. chris: when somebody says they're not going to do something again, it's a suggestion they did the wrong thing the last time. that's a great roundtable today. howard fineman, katty kay, norah o'donnell and rick stengel. [ woman ] bathing suits. shorts. tank tops. [ female announcer ] grab a box of mul

it came to brazilian cotton farmers or weapons the pentagon didn't want or infrastructure in afghanistan or iraq security forces, all the things the gentleman from alabama voted for to come out of the taxpayers' hide and then he votes against and opposes our legislation already passed and just reintroduced to have the large financial institutions pay for this. so his concern for taxpayers comes into play when we're trying to help people who are in need but it's not in play when we talk about heavy defense contracters, brazilian american cotton farmers or the large financial institutions because he and his fellow partisans have fought every effort we have made to get the large financial institutions to bear this cost. but we do have still in the tarp, as people will hear later, business to do that. the chair: the gentleman reserves the balance of his time. the gentlewoman from illinois. mrs. biggert: may i request again the time? the chair: the gentlewoman from illinois has five minutes. the gentleman from massachusetts has 15 1/2 minutes. mrs. biggert: i would reserve the balance of my time. the

. >> most important for him he needs to leave the country with a message that this is not iraq or afghanistan not a third full-blown war in a muslim country the kind his own defense secretary said a president would have to have his head examined if he got involved. >> ifill: it has only been ten days since the first bombs began to fall in libya in an effort to make this coalition work. how much has the president and his administration gotten themselves together? you ask this question later. because here is the president of the united states. >> tonight i'd like to update the american people on the international effort that we have led in libya. what we've done, what we plan to do and why this matters to us. i want to begin by paying tribute to our men and women in uniform. who once again have acted with courage, professionalism, and patriotism. they have moved with incredible speed and strength. because of them, and our dedicated diplomats, a coalition has been forged and countless lives have been saved. meanwhile as we speak, our troops are supporting our ally japan, leaving iraq to its peop

military other journalists who work independently in war zones like iraq or afghanistan have been targeted and eliminated by their coalition forces meaning western forces meaning nido you know states britain etc because they've been reporting more honestly about what happens so it's impossible to be an independent journalist to some degree it's just it's really an information propaganda war serving a very imperialist agenda at this point but i worked in afghanistan the congo ugandan ethiopia as well reporter each of which were conflict zones at the time and particular afghanistan is well known in the congo it couldn't be more dangerous you're faced with you know if you took the problem is most your many journalists out there are not not honest they're not going to tell the truth if you do tell the truth you've got to consider who you're working with and how that's going to play out it becomes very difficult to present an honest picture of events you have to be able to pay for protection or work with somebody to protect you so i mean you have to be with the united states military or with th

we will not foreclose on service members' homes while they are in combat, while they're in afghanistan or iraq, we've had banks do hundreds and hundreds of foreclosures on our men and women in uniform. there are needs for these programs and yet we're conveniently forgetting those facts. lastly this bill, with all due respect, has been poorly drafted in a meaningful way. this bill, if adopted, would prohibit all voluntary agreements between parties to stop these foreclosures. and i understand what the targets of my republican colleagues are, but the bill is drafted so broadly it would prevent the banks and the f.h.a. and the homeowner and the servicer to come to a voluntary agreement. private enterprise has been something that my colleagues used to encourage and here we have voluntary agreements that will be prohibited by this bill. and i do not think that is the intent of the gentleman, however that is the actual impact of his legislation and i have an amendment more specifically to deal with that at a later time. but we have to slow down the foreclosure process to put a floor under this econo

for example, economic progress either in iraq or afghanistan, the number of businesses opens on the stock exchange with activities in iraq for example, unemployment rate is in the governmental process of elections rule of law, local councils being developed and then military, ied attacks, provinces, training missions. provinces conquered are stabilized and metrics like that some members of congress and the public weather for the word origins to work it's a-ok, i admit in these categories and various metrics there is progress. you can get the information that is so scattered. it would just be excellent if we could have one document was issued monthly that said okay, here's what's going on. and then my third question is the bureaucracy at the pentagon. and i'm not sure what number or who is in the bureaucracy and who is that so to speak, but in 2002, the budget request was $329 billion. this year's 553 billion or 41% increase. i have had friends of mine who are in the military who come through the pentagon and save the bureaucracy they are, maybe 25% of the people work their tails off and t