appreciate all your time. >> in a column in the -- i'm sorry, in a story in the the atlantic" barton gellman says his goal is to throw an election into chaos and grab a second term regardless of what the votes say. according to gellman, if trump sheds all restraint and if his republican allies play the parts he assigns them, he could obstruct the emergence of a legal victory for biden in the electoral college, and in congress, he could prevent the formation of consensus about whether there is an outcome at all, he could seize on that uncertainty to hold on to power. with me now is "atlantic" staff writer barton gellman. his new piece is titled "the election that could break america." this is not the first time, bart, the president has refused to commit to a peaceful transfer of power. he did it in 2016, talking about whether he would accept the results of the election. obviously, he wasn't the president back then. he's also done it in the lead-up to this election before this. you did an extensive report, exhaustive report about what that could mean. talk about the effort to undercut mail-in

joining us now, cnn political correspondent, abby phillip, and barton gellman, a staff writer at the "atlantic," who just this week, like hours before the president said what he said, barton published a story that said "the election that could break markeamerica." i think it's worth playing one more time what the president said. and i will preface this again by saying, the peaceful transfer of power is central to our republic. it's one of the defining aspects of our republic. the president is taskasked dire about that and this is what he said. >> will you commit to making sure that there is a peaceful transferm feral of power after the election? >> we'll see. i've been complaining very strongly about the plaballots a the ballots are a disaster. >> i understand that, but people are rioting. >> well, get rid of the ballots and you'll have a very -- there won't be a transfer, frankly. there'll be a continuation. >> to be clear, the refusal to commit to a peaceful transfer in and of itself is an implicit threat of violence. so barton gellman, there are people who are like, oh, no, this is

barton gellman, very good to have you on the "newshour".te that, worst case scenario is thaten prestrump, on election night, just rejects the outcome to have the elction. he's already repeatedly said that anything other than his victory on eleion night isce evidhat the democrats are trying to steal the electionle s say he does say that. how do that play out? >>lilection night is ttle early for the scene to play out. it's likely he will declare victory on election night especially if he's ahead in the early vote because it's expected, based on the best modeling that wei've got, s imperfect, it's expected that hw will be ahen only the in-person votes are calculated tabulated because hhas persuaded a lot of republicans that maiel-in votes unsafe and that many more democrats are vote big mail and that as the days go by after the election and the count completes, then joe biden will pull ahead. that's the forecast as we have it now. no one knows that for sure. but if that's the case, he's going to try to stop the countn on electght. he's going t

barton gellman, thank you for being with us, staff writer at "the atlantic."e will link to your piece there called "the election that could break america." bookatulations on your new "dark mirror: edward snowden and the american surveillance state" this is democracy now! as we end this segmentnt, let's hear from m president trump speaking to delegates at the republican national convention last month. pres. trump: the only way they can take this election away from us is if this is a rigged election. we are going to win this election. what they're doing is using covid to steal an election. they are using covid to defraud the american people -- all of our people -- of a fair anand fe electionon. we can't do that. amy: on thursday afternoon, independent senanator bernie sanders s spokt respondingng to trump's remarks. sen. sanders:: i think it is terribly important that we actually listen to and take seriouslsly what donald trump is saying.. several l weeks ago, speakiningt the republican national convention, trump said, and i quote -- "the only way they can take

with editor in chief explaining sometimes a story comes along that just can't wait and joined by barton gellman. you write that people including joe biden have misconceived the nature of the threat, fwrramings a threat unthinking. and the you go on to say, quote, the worst case is not that trump rejects the election but uses the power. in your article here in your obertoing you found a concerted effort to do that. tell us about that. >> well, one of the things that surprised me when i started to explore this was the power of the implication. if you start with the premise that president trump is not going to concede defeat, whether or not he's defeated, he has enormous power to prevent the formation of a decisive outcome. there's no umpire in presidential election, even someone like the secretary we just heard from, there's no umpire who has jurisdiction over the whole problem of who just got elected of president and say the game is over. there's no one to tell the loser he's lost if he's not prepared to concede and a thing that the president can do is to challenge the results. his campaign is w

here's barton gellman describing that scenario to chris hayes tonight. >> it's in the constitution. > legislators can appoint electors for president in any manner they choose. and the supreme court ruled in bush v gore in 2000 that state electors -- state legislators can take back that power from the people any time they want. so we're accustomed to voting by popular vote for who is going to represent our state in state electors, but the constitution doesn't guarantee that. and the idea that some trump people are discussing, not saying they have a plan to do it, but i know that it is coming up and they have discussed it also with the republican party in pennsylvania, a crucial swing state, is that they would ask republican legislators who control pennsylvania to name trump friendly electors notwithstanding the popular vote, regardless of the popular vote. it will be a claim that the counties had finished or it was corrupt or that it was rigged or that there are still legal disputes and so just appoint some trump people. >> how are the democrats going to fight that? do they have an arm

. >> but, we can sort of predict that the president will be litigious, and as barton gellman said in this "atlantic" article that's gotten so much attention, abby, president trump will never concede. he's not built that way. he doesn't concede defeat, never. he won in 2016 and he didn't concede he lost the popular vote, he never has. so when mitch mcconnell says this, let's play mitch mcconnell and let's part what that might really mean. >> we've had an orderly transfer of power every four years since washington was selected for a second term in 1792. that will happen again to the winner of the november 3rd election on january the 20th, 2021. >> therein lies the rub. that will happen for the winner of the election. president trump will claim he's the winner, regardless of if he wins. >> yeah, i think that there is a lot of wiggle room that republicans are creating for themselves and how they're talking about this. you know, one of the big things that we know, to your point, al as you know, about the president's litigiousness, we know that the republican national committee, the presid

specifically in pennsylvania where the chairman of the pennsylvania republican party confirmed to barton gellman that strategizing is already under way for republicans to block the counting of mail-in ballots after election day, and then pennsylvania's republican legislature would intervene and award pennsylvania's electoral votes to donald trump, but don't worry. don't worry about that particular scenario because that will never happen in pennsylvania, and here's why. although the united states constitution granted the power to choose electors to state legislatures, all state legislatures have passed laws signed by their governors that give the voters in their states the choice of electors and they exercise that choice when they cast their vote for president. and the only way for that to change is for the republican legislature in pennsylvania to pass legislation that repeals current pennsylvania law and grants to the legislature alone the power to choose electors no matter where you put the chances of pennsylvania republicans in the legislature actually trying to do that, no matter whether you

yesterday in this hour, we read to you this chilling prediction from barton gellman in "the atlantic. this. quote, donald trump may win or lose, but he will never concede, not under any circumstance. and as if on cue, one hour later, this stunning exchange all but confirmed that fear. >> will you commit to making sure that there is a peaceful transferal of power after the election? >> well, we're going to have to see what happens. you know that. i've been complaining very strongly about the ballots and the ballots are a disaster. >> i understand that, but people are rioting. do you commit to making sure that there's a peaceful transferal of power? >> well, get rid of the ballots and we'll have a very -- there'll be a peaceful -- there won't be a transfer, frankly, there'll be a continuation. >> the outcry was swift and in our last hour, former deputy national security adviser to obama, ben rhodes, warned of us of potentially violent implication ifs donald trump doesn't do what every presidential candidate before him has done, accept the election results and call on all americans, espe

barton gellman everyone should read his piece "the election that could break america" and professor of government brendon nyan. thank you. >>> we'll run through the grand jury decision out of louisville, kentucky that doesn't charge any officer with the death of breonna taylor but did issue one indictment for endangering her neighbors. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. watching "" we'll be right back. from prom dresses... ...to soccer practices... ...and new adventures. you hope the more you give the less they'll miss. but even if your teen was vaccinated against meningitis in the past... they may be missing vaccination for meningitis b. let's help protect them together. because missing menb vaccination could mean missing out on a whole lot more. ask your doctor if your teen is missing meningitis b vaccination. ( ♪ ) ready to juvÉderm it? correct age-related volume loss in cheeks with juvÉderm voluma xc, add fullness to lips with juvÉderm ultra xc and smooth moderate to severe lines around the nose and mouth with juvÉderm xc. tell your doctor if you have a history of