can you bring us up to speed on bernie kerik and how he plays into this investigation? >> kerik is a trump ally, somebody who was pardoned by the former president, and somebody who was very involved in trying the investigate the elements of the stop the steal movement as it was sort of characterized at the time. he worked with rudy giuliani as pictured there, and other trump allies to find the information that the then president wanted to hear about a stolen election. again, somebody who was in if not the innermost circle of the trump world, certainly one of the closer in circles, and somebody privy to the information that speaks to the question of what donald trump knew or understood about the realities of the 2020 election, despite what he was saying publicly at the time. >> garrett, any word from mark meadows, a name we haven't heard much about lately, even though mark meadows was so central, as you pointed out so many times. so central in the january 6th hearings. >> the short answer is no, and i remain fascinated by this fact. mark meadows was the chief of staff of

all we hear is what bernie kerik in two weeks made up some evidence about this. i mean, if this were truly exculpatory, and showed donald trump thought that he really won the election, we would have heard about it years ago. we are three years after january 6th, and you know, the idea, all of a sudden now magically, this idea materialized, and it's going to exculpate donald trump. i don't buy it for a second, donald trump is entitled to the presumption of innocence. he will hire the best attorneys his money could buy, for whatever that's worth. but, you know, at the end of the day, this is going to a court of law with very strict procedures and rules of evidence. and these kinds of, you know, bogus attacks, i don't think they're gonna get him to an acquittal. >> nbc news is reporting tonight that richard donahue, who was the final acting attorney general in the trump administration, has spoken with jack smith, has told him everything that he told you, tim heaphy, at the january 6th committee, but he has not met with the grand jury. it was attorney general donie w

bernie kerik was part of that group along with rudy giuliani. there were connections with roger stone, the people who attacked the capitol, the proud boys and the oath keepers and i wonder whether tax smith doesn't want to close the loop there and see if there can be some connection drawn between mark meadows, donald trump and what happened at the capitol on january 6th. we recall that cassidy hutchinson said that mark meadows was going to go to the willard hotel on the night of january 5th. she talked him out of it, instead he participated in the meeting my conference call. so perhaps can shed some light of what was happening there i, think they'll be very interesting to jack smith. >> so and you, it sounds like there are still some beyond the proofreading in this election of words and the nomenclature of all this, it sounds like there is still some material that needs to be, checked some substantive material whether it's bernie kerik's notes or the reporting we have from nbc news that at least two more fake electors have been subpoenaed to tes

after that pardon, what did bernie kerik do?nt on to work alongside the ex presidents election conspiracy theorist and chief, rudy giuliani. yes, that guy, as he tried to overturn the 2020 election. the former new york city, new york police commissioner was on the ground, searching, looking everywhere he could for nonexistent voter fraud to keep trump in power. and after months, months of refusing to hand over documents to the special counsel's team, we learned today that keirk turned over thousands of pages of documents to jack smith's team. that's a lot of reading. and we will sit down with prosecutors in two weeks. according to the daily beast, the ex president actually waved privilege on friday and agreed to let kerik hand over those documents. i have a lot of questions about that and why he did that. but he is yet another trump insider who will sit down for jack smith's team. i've been having a hard time, and i've been following this closely. we learned this week at that the special counsel is further looking to the ex pres

attorneys, bernie kerik the former nypd police commissioner who worked closely with rudy giuliani thats still scheduled to speak with prosecutors potentially days from now. how does that work into the timeline of a pending indictment? >> yeah, look, i mean, part of what we've been kind of wrestling with, we're trying to figure out -- we know that the former president was now told more than two weeks ago that he was a target of this investigation and that that was an indication that he certainly could be charged very soon, but the fact that bernie kerik, who is an important witness, he has information that was only recently turned over, as a matter of fact, last weekend was when his lawyers turned over information that prosecutors had been looking to get, again, looking at wkerik's role was wih rudy giuliani, trying to come up with proof of fraud of which we know there was none. he is going to meet with prosecutors in the coming days. we don't know whether this means this indictment is put off for a little while longer or whether they already have what they need and bernie kerik is more

they still seem to be in talks in the january 6th investigation to have bernie kerik come and sit down with them. trump already got a target letter. is it possible they're still very much investigating even though they may be able to bring charges for trump. >> we don't really know the extent of the it charges that are going to be brought with this particular target letter or who else is going to be part of it. this could just be a case only with donald trump and then there's another case with other defendants like rudy giuliani, et cetera. we don't know and jack smith might want to have a streamlined case to try to get a case to trial before the election and probably reads the tea leaves in florida that aileen cannon is going to, you know, give an adjournment here and give an adjournment there and it's death by a thousand cuts where it eventually pushes it out so far, aileen cannon is no friend of jack smith. she is a trump apointee and it could go to trial so there might be other investigations with other people involving the same -- involving january 6th. we just don't know. >> that

he just received a trove of documents from bernie kerik. along inside trump attorney rudy giuliani led the probe in claims of false voter fraud. cnn's katelyn polantz is outside the courthouse where the jury is expected to meet. what developments have there been from the special counsel's office? >> reporter: well, boris, after months and months of this grand jury coming in tuesdays and thursdays, working diligently hearing from witnesses and having other information brought to them coming in, in documents, they do not appear to have convened today. however, that doesn't mean the special counsel's office is not busy at work. and the primary thing that we know that they have now that they didn't have before, that no investigator had before, were all of these documents that bernie kerik, a close associate of rudy giuliani had, as he was working with giuliani and others after the election. working for the trump campaign. essentially there were -- it's a collection of lawyers led by giuliani, who were trying to gather information about voter fr

in addition to the previously undisclosed documents, i'm told bernie kerik has scheduled an interview with the special counsel in the next two weeks. it's a reminder that even if there is an indictment, it will continue into the summer. >>> we have more legal experts joining us now. shan wu and norm eisen. shan, let me start with you. we know prosecutors are honing in on this trump meeting in february of 2020 in which he insisted at least to its closest associates there was no election fraud or anything along those lines. why do you think this has all of a sudden become a focus of the special counsel's investigation? >> i think it adds, wolf, to this notion of whether or not trump knew his position was illegal. meaning he already understood there was good security in the election and he was actually happy with it, bragging to people about it, maybe wanted to publicize that. the issue is no matter how much evidence of that exists, he can always say i changed my mind later or in my heart i didn't really trust that. i think the key for prosecutors is going to be showing his intent as to

so we know they've received thousands of documents from bernie kerik's lawyer.night we obtained many of them. we had a chance to read over them. and wolf, there isn't a lot of there there. there is absolutely no evidence of fraud. it looks like they had just started their investigation. it hadn't really yielded much. but there didn't seem to be a lot that would be especially relevant to any potential charges against the former president. so it does not appear they have to wait until they go through all of this to make a charging decision. but we know bernie kerik is also going to sit for an interview, speak to the special counsel and we expect that will happen the first or second week of august. >> giuliani already did. >> he talked to them for over two days they went to new york to talk to him, and his attorney tells me they do not expect him to be charged. >> spent eight hours answering questions. what do do you make of these new rest revelations? >> i think the investigation they began could be interesting to find out what kind of instructions they were being

a lot of these documents coming from the former new york city police commissioner, bernie kerik, who we also know is scheduled to sit down with jack smith's team in the coming weeks. i think that is a small part of this. i don't think it's a significant part. but an important thing to note about the grand jury not meeting today, as we're reading the tea leaves on this, trump's team is doing the exact same thing. they also don't have an indication of when this is going to happen. they're bracing for it, though. >> they certainly are. stand by. dana bash, trump is on the 2024 campaign trail today in louisiana. a new poll shows 72% of republicans are not concerned that trump's indictments weaken him in a general election. what do you make of that? we're showing viewers our pictures of trump's arrival in new orleans. you see the trump plane there. >> reporter: that's consistent, wolf, with what we have seen since the former president had his first indictment on a state level in new york. in the spring. and that sentiment among republicans, who matter the most to imright now, because he w

eli, the special counsel has what is described as a trove from bernie kerik. what is the significance of that in terms of trying to find fraud. >> i think this is the flip side of the intent issue, which is showing, or disproving this argument that, well, some of my advisers brought my compelling evidence that there was fraud, and that's why i tried to reverse the election. prosecutors need to get that. they need to be prepared to counteract those, to saying this nothing, a pile of useless garbage. a lot of courts found that, and i think prosecutors have to be ready for that defense, and those documents i believe will help prosecutors argue that the allegation of fraud was nothing and unsubstantiated. >> andrew, do you think we could see in the election fraud foot soldiers eventually be criminally charged? >> well, i think it's entirely possible, wolf. we no some of the charges are conspiracy charges. they would be well advised to have a live, identified, prosecuted co-conspirator on the indictment with mr. trump in the event that one comes down. it's possible

these were handed over by an attorney for former new york police commissioner bernie kerik.of rudy giuliani. and he was part of the team that giuliani assembled after the 2020 election that was working to look for this supposed fraud in and around the 2020 election. now, during the investigation on the hill to january 6, kerik did not turn over some of these materials, saying that he was a part of the legal team. and these, some of these materials should be covered by privilege. but after he was contacted by the special counsel in recent weeks, he took these materials to the trump campaign, allowed them to review the documents. and the campaign, we're told, said, look, we're not going to assert privilege to any of this. so in recent days thousands and thousands of pages were handed over to special counsel jack smith who now can review them as part of his ongoing investigation into efforts to overturn the 2020 election. and the events leading up to january. now, we know and we previously reported that bernie kerik has been some talks with prosecutors for an interview in the s

. >> so there he is talking about the interviews they have scheduled with his client, ops bernie kerik, the former new york police commissioner and other people. he said you can't go ahead and indict trump before you talk to all of these people. do you agree? >> well, it's certainly not the case in most investigations. in other words, it's very possible federal your ares to return an indictment seek and ultimately obtain an indictment before an investigation is complete that happens all the time. whether it's wise for them to do so in this particular circumstance depends on whether or not what, for example, they're learning from mr. kerik is going to influence the charges that they bring. but it is often the case in all sorts of federal investigations that you bring charges. you ultimately continue to investigation, sometimes with the belief that limited set of charges you brought early on might get some people to flip, or might help you obtain some evidence that will help you expand those indictments later in what's called a superseding indictment like we saw in the mar-a-lago case. >

so, you heard katelyn polantz talk about the documents, the bernie kerik/rudy giuliani documents thatere outlining potentially research on the election fraud claims. now, these documents may be ludicrous. these documents may say things that are flat-out wrong. what would make them criminal? >> well, in a prosecutor dream scenario, there would be some documents, you say hey look, i know we're trying to gin up something, this is the best we've got but if it's just a stack of documents purporting to the evidence of election fraud, the question is would a normal person looking at that understand that was nothing, that that was just a filpile of nonsense. so it's going to depend what's in the documents. i can see them used in the prosecution primarily but also the defense. if you want to defend donald trump, you say look, people are giving him stacks and stacks of documents. he didn't necessarily read all of them, but there's a lot of evidence. >> there's a lot coming from rudy giuliani world. including the eight-hour testimony. what does that tell us where rudy giuliani is in this investi

bernie kerik isn't seen as a major player in this. but it is still notable, they are still very much investigating. >> and ali, you and i have talked about this before. there could be an indictment, and witnesses could still be testifying. >> absolutely, even if there are grand jury proceeding schedule before, august this indictment could still drop at anytime. and here is why. by the book as a prosecutor, once you indict a case, you are social stop using the grand jury, but only asked for the four corners of that indictment, only as to the specific person even, under the specific crimes you've indicted. but if you are investigating other crimes, or other people, you absolutely have to carry on. you know the prosecutors always say the investigation is ongoing, we say that all the time. this is why, because you always have an ongoing investigation. this and i've come at any moment. >> why would a witness be brought back before the grand jury's? >> a lot of different reasons, but sometimes full and accurate testimony, expected loyal to

a lot of activity, prosecutors, as you mentioned, just received hundreds of new documents from bernie kerik is acting as really an investigator on behalf of rudy giuliani at the time. and kerik's job is to find any testified that could back up the baseless claims of widespread voter fraud that we know ztrump and his allies were pushing. . and what wee found is baseless evidence of anything that trump was pushing. it's unclear how this fits into the investigation itself. we know trump has already been told he's a target in the probe. we'll keep an eye on that, we're learning new details that jack smith is exploring, he's asking officials about a february 2020 oval office meeting. this happened months before the oval office meeting of voter machines. they were talking about how they were going to protect the 2020 election, trump was apparently so impressed he wanted them to hold a press conference so he could take credit for the work they were doing. obviously, a stark contrast to fraud and venezuela hacking voting machines that he was pushing a few months later. really an interesting process

he just received a trove of documents from former new york city police commissioner, bernie kerik. kerik along side former trump attorney, rudy giuliani, led the trump campaign's probe into false claims of election fraud. for months, kerik withheld the documents, claiming they were privileged, but now he has handed them over just weeks ahead of his own scheduled sit-down with federal prosecutors. cnn has also learned the special counsel is interested in particular in a february 2020 oval office meeting where sources tell cnn trump actually praised u.s. election security. cnn's senior legal affairs correspondent, paula reid, joins me now to discuss. a lot to get to. first, we're not going to know until we know, right? >> exactly. >> but why the particular focus on today's grand jury meeting? >> the grand jury that's been hearing evidence in the january 6th case typically meets on tuesdays and thursdays. now, that schedule can be amended as needed, but we have a producer at the courthouse, casey begannan, she's been there for months. she knows the grand jury, she knows all the player

nbc news confirmed former nypd commissioner bernie kerik turned over thousands of documents to smith's office on sunday. how soon his attorney says he's expected to sit down with prosecutors to discuss those documents and what it could mean for a potential indictment timeline. we are covering every angle with our reporters and experts including nbc news justice and intelligence correspondent ken dilanian, nbc news correspondent vaughn hillyard. let's start with yasmin vossoughian outside the d.c. courtroom. we know the grand jury meets tuesdays and thursdays, but not today. do we know why? >> we don't. we have all been trying to kind of figure that out. you mentioned those thousands of pages of documents handed over by bernie kerik that broke on the air yesterday. maybe it's because of that. maybe, in fact, it's not a delay at all and the plan is thursday. we're listening as to when this thing is actually going to drop. we we do know is they haven't met so far. the latest the grand jury convened is 12:30 eastern dime. right now it's around 3:01. the assumption is they won't be meeting

they are expected to talk to, a former trump lawyer and also former new york police commissioner bernie kerikrudy giuliani in the efforts in and around the election and rudy giuliani was one of the people they reached out to, but they've been able to complete his interview and they sat down with him over the course of two mornings, but we know the former president received a target letter on sunday. that typically means an indictment is imminent. he was given, as you know, until today to go before the grand jury. we don't expect he will do that. we don't expect that he'll give them formal notice that he won't do it which leads to ambiguity for indictment before they wrap up their work. we know they did this in the mar-a-lago investigations. they indicted the former president and his associate walt nauta and then they continued their work. they even sent out another target letter. even if there is an indictment letter, we know the special counsel's work will continue through the summer. >> thank you very much. ryan goodman is with me now, along with sara griffen, former white house communicati

for incitement to the trump legal team and for breaking that is with us about your other client bernie kerik. thanks for joining us. >> all right, thank you. >> here with us now, former federal prosecutor jennifer rodgers and former chief assistant the eighth for manhattan karen agnifilo. thank you both for being here. let's start with you on the news that he made about the idea that they seemed to still be in talks with the special counsel's office and they generate six investigation to have bernard kerik comments them with them. trump already got a target letter. is it possible that they are still very much investigating, even though that may be able to bring charges for trump? >> we don't really know the extent of the charges that we brought with us pictogram or who else is going to be part of it. this could just be a case only off donald trump and then there's another case with other defendants like rudy giuliani, et cetera. we just don't know. jack smith, for example, might want to have a streamlined case to try and get a case to trial before the election. he probably trades the taylors

there's several people we expect to testify, including bernie kerik. does that mean we're a month away from whether or not donald trump is indicted? can you continue to do this after indicting him? >> we don't know what is happening. everything that happens by law is secret. the answer is, yes. we don't know if it's a sweeping indictment or not. mark meadows, rudy giuliani, there's lots of people that were part of the conspiracy. jack smith might bring the multiple indictment or the three crimes listed in the target letter. there's multiple investigations going on. it could be a limited discreet indictment for donald trump for the conduct on january 6th and the months before and the contact after. all of the things we talked about. continuing investigation in the grand jury, for other individuals other crimes. other potential defendants. potentially other charges against donald trump. yes, that doesn't mean we have to wait for an indictment. >> interesting it can continue to go along. you don't know how far it is going. we know rudy giuliani says he ha

. >> garrett, what more do we know about bernie kerik and the documents, thousands of pages, turned over to the special counsel's office? >> kerik tweeted about this yesterday, said this was pursuant to a subpoena he handed over the documents and comes after a privilege review by the trump campaign. he makes it pretty clear he wasn't flipping or selling out his former colleague, rudy giuliani. but we know that kerik and giuliani worked together on behalf of the trump campaign to investigate claims of voter fraud around the country. we understand these documents to be some of that work product of what they put together. so, depending on what's in them, it could cast some light on what the trump campaign and what donald trump himself knew about the claims he was making about voter fraud at the time. how many times have we talked about this idea of whether donald trump knew at the time that the claims he was making false or not? what is in the documents could shed significant light on that. >> so, jill, if kerik was involved with the giuliani efforts to try to uncover election fraud that co

so far, we have confirmation that rudy giuliani and lin wood, bernie kerik, scott perry, kenneth chesbrough and john eastman, so far we have confirmation that all of those people have not received target letters. again, so far. other individuals like jeffrey clark, who trump tried to appoint as the acting attorney general and the january of 2021, helping trump to overturn the results of the election. mr. clark's spokesman declined to comment. tonight, there's a particular focus on people like jeffrey clark and john eastman, and rudy giuliani. the lawyers in the trump bunch. part of a rant on his social media platform, truth social, he claimed tonight that lawyers and the legal system itself are under siege. he called that siege a gift from crooked joe biden, merrick garland, and deranged prosecutor jack smith. who knows what trump meant by that. if i were a lawyer, if i were a lawyer that would help trump to try and overturn the 2020 election, i might be keeping an eye on my mailbox. joining us now is barbara mcquade, the former u.s. attorney for the eastern district of michigan. barb, we a

former new york police commissioner bernie kerik is expected to meet with them.van perez joins us. kerik was part of this effort to develop supposed evidence of fraud. is that why his testimony is key to investigators? >> right. it's important because obviously he just turned over thousands of pages of documents that the special counsel had been trying to get for some time, jim. so the question is whether the fact that he's going in in a few days, whether that means we have to wait until after that for an indictment of the former president, which everybody is anticipating, the former president himself is anticipating, given the fact he got that target letter, or is it possible that kerik's testimony is about other players in that scheme, of course, which was to try to help keep the former president in power. tim parlatore, his attorney, was on with paula reid over the weekend, and he addressed this issue. listen. >> when you have something like this to bring an indictment before you've finished your investigation, for whatever reason they may choose to do it, it

that there are still witnesses meeting with the grand jury and with the special counsel including bernie kerik and a couple of the so-called fake electors and theyare scheduled to meet with the prosecution and grand jury in august. but one person who says that he hasn't been contacted is mo brooks. and he is mildly surprised. brooks has said that trump urged him to help rescind the 2020 election and violate the u.s. constitution and federal law. his words. any idea why he hasn't been sought out? >> really only two poekts. number one, the special counsel would have what it would need brooks based on public comments already and don't feel that they would need to bring him in. and number two, that they have heard what he has to say in public and don't think that what he has to say is especially relevant to the case that they are building. he has an ax to grind so speaks to the idea of why he would want to complain publicly about the fact that he has not been called. and also we have too just be cognizant of all the things we don't know about what is going on behind closed doors and what informati

target letter earlier in the week but investigators want to hear from more witnesses, including bernie keriked closely with rudy giuliani. what does that tell you? >> well, i don't think it necessarily tells us that there won't be an indictment of donald trump soon. we just don't know. we don't know what exactly the special counsel is doing. i think the fact that we have heard from trump, and i assume that's accurate, that there -- it has been a target letter issued to him, tells us that we shouldn't have -- we won't be waiting that long for trump to be indicted. that said, it doesn't mean that the special counsel has to stop investigating. in fact, it makes sense for the special counsel to keep looking for evidence, even if he thinks he has enough already. >> you pointed out, george, that mark meadows has been quiet, despite his legal exposure in this case. do you think he's actually cooperating with the special counsel? >> again, there's no way of knowing, but it is passing strange that two years ago he was leading the charge for trump 2024. he showed up in bedminster and he was -- he was

a number of potential witnesses represented by other attorneys in all of this, someone like a bernie keriko haven't been called to testify but expect they will in the not-too-distant future. the thing that's hanging overall this is that target letter that the former president received more than a week ago which does seem to suggest we're in the end game here. the grand jury is back tomorrow. they regularly meet on tuesdays. perhaps we're closer to the end of this than it appears. but it's really tough to pin this down given the secretive nature of this process and the nature of what we know of the evidence collected and that target letter. i feel like i should point out there's nothing in that target letter that suggests we'd see a charge of something like seditious conspiracy. there's evidence we're talking about something much bigger than january 6th. this is not just about the attack on the capitol which is the way so many of those candidates framed their responses in the lead-in to this. it's about everything that happened, from election day through the lead-up. if we are going to see

former trump lawyer who's scheduled to come in next month to sit for an interview, and then also bernie keriks very close to rudy giuliani who was working on that effort to gather election frauld and come up with plans after the election for donald trump. the special counsel's office also want documents from him. he's pushed back on a lot of inquiries for records that he has in his possession when congress asked for them, when people in a civil lawsuit asked for them, and so that is a track of the investigation that still exists. now, the thing that when you look at this, it doesn't aull mean that the special counsel's office has one case and one case alone related to january 6th that they're working on. they could potentially be bringing an indictment against donald trump and then have other pieces fall into place after that or have other inquiries they continue to pursue just like they're doing in the mar-a-lago investigation where they indicted donald trump and his co-defendant and then continued to cut subpoenas and also sent a target letter to another person. >> katelyn, it was kind of a

i think that article you are referring to talks about the fact that bernie kerik, who was working forgiuliani, has turned over some information just in the last 24 hours to jack smith. i think a lot of that evidence has already been looked out by other authorities, i think that it is more of a sideshow and distraction. i could see trump hoping that that would delay his indictment even further, but i don't really put much stock in that. so i think that whole storyline, you know, it might turn out to be something, but we don't know enough to say that is happening here. >> katie, you covered the justice department. what are you hearing from your sources about these cases that smith is working on? >> you know, that the cases themselves have come up there, they have been a lot of debate about the cases themselves, what charges should be brought and the evidence. also, there is just so much evidence to go through. they are going to have through, as we've seen, they're already interviewing witnesses who have come in before the a grand jury. before interviewing witnesses, who have testified b

. >> bernie kerik and rudy giuliani don't breathe a sigh of relief just. left their luck is not over. andrew weissmann, diana perry, thank you so much thank you for your time i know many be seeing both more both of you soon. we have a lot more including the latest ever and ron desantis as florida to whitewash the teaching of slavery. plus, maga republicans let wild conspiracy theories take center stage on capitol hill today. with some help from a democrat. that's next. that's next. >> the republican hearings that have and hold it over the fast few days, and throughout this entire congress are a malignant clown show. an clown show having triplets is... -amazing -expensive. so, we switched to the bargain detergent, but we ended up using three times as much and the clothes still weren't as clean as with tide. so we're back with tide, and the clothes are clean again. do 3x the laundry and get a tide clean. it's got to be tide. type 2 diabetes? discover the ozempic® tri-zone. do 3x the laundry and get a tide clean. in my ozempic® tri-zone, i lowered my a1c, cv

have not yet testified that are scheduled to appear before the grand jury in august, including bernie kerik. is your expectation that indictment could become before that or that it might not come until after that? how are you viewing this? >> i think it's tough to indict before you hear from these witnesses. two different groups of witnesses that matter here. one is carrick. he may not be particularly important to the government for its case, -in-chief but you want to know what he has to say as a witness for the defense. he was working closely with rudy giuliani to put information together for trump in this critical period where they were vetting the fraud allegations following the election. you want to know if he provides trump with a viable defense. it seems very unlikely. it's clear trump knew that he had lost, but you've got to run to the ground if you're being a thoughtful prosecutor, and jack smith clearly is. what is perhaps more interesting, though, is the fact that smith is talking to more of the electors. one of the seven states where they had the fake slates of electors, it seems

keep in mind we know there are still additional witnesses who might be scheduled including bernie keriknothing indicates that they're key to an indictment against the former president. it's possible they are important for maybe other figures, people who are also involved in the broader effort of the former president's effort to stay in office. for the former president himself, it's not -- >> let me get norm to weigh in. how much legal peril is trump facing right now? >> wolf, i can't think of a political figure in the entire history of the united states of america including richard nixon who has faced as many simultaneous criminal cases that have been filed and that are threatened. remember, we have alvin bragg who has prosecuted him in new york for alleged 2016 election interference for covering up hush money payments. alvin bragg had a big win in federal court the other week to carry his case forward. no one even noticed because there's so much additional peril, and all these other cases as well. he's in tremendous legal jeopardy. >> i suspect he understands that. i assume he does. gu

including bernie kerik. but he's gonna be testifying for the grand jury as we understand it. and in a month, like, next month. does that mean we are really far away from actually seeing whether or not donald trump is indicted? can you continue to do this after indicting him, or no? . >> so we don't exactly know what is happening, because everything that happens in a grand jury by law is secret. but yes, the answer is yes. we don't know if jack smith is going to bring a sweeping indictment or a very limited indictment. you know, this could be an indictment of many defendants, including people like mark meadows, rudy giuliani, john eastman, strict -- there are lot of people who were part of this conspiracy and jack smith might be bringing this multi defendant sweeping indictment, or he might do a very limited indictment, which is donald trump and the three crimes that were listed in the target letter, we just don't know. but we do know that there are multiple investigations going on, and that this is the special grand jury that is going to continue past tomorrow. so it is possi

former new york police commissioner bernie kerik, a top giuliani associate in 2020, who was imprisoned four years on corruption charges, has turned over thousands of pages of documents to jack smith. laura jarrett joins me now. what should we make of these developments from the special counsel's office? one week after mr. trump received that target letter. jack smith prosecutors are interviewing people. that does not rule out that they could come down with an indictment or present it to the grand jury. >> right. for folks trying to follow the twists and turns, it can seem dizzying. we know the grand jury is actively investigating, is still hearing testimony. in recent days we have at least one witness go before that grand jury. we don't know if there are others still to come. as you mentioned, the reporting confirming the former new york police commissioner turned over documents they have been seeking for a while. they were seeking it about kerik and giuliani's alleged efforts to uncover voter interference. they were advised was not well-founded but there was a substantial amount of do

. >> bernie kerik and rudy giuliani don't breathe a sigh of relief just. left their luck is not over. andrew weissmann, dayna perry, thank you so much thank you for your time i know many be seeing both more both of you soon. we have a lot more including the latest ever and ron desantis as florida to whitewash the teaching of slavery. plus, maga republicans let wild conspiracy theories take center stage on capitol hill today. with some help from a democrat. that's next. >> the republican hearings that have and hold it over the fast few days, and throughout this entire congress are a malignant clown show. clown show >> woman: why did we choose safelite? we were loading our suv when... crack! safelite came right to us, and we could see exactly when they'd arrive with a replacement we could trust. that's service the way we want it. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪♪ voltaren. the joy of movement. ♪♪ (mom) the moment i loved our subaru outback most... was the moment they walked away from it.e joy of movement. (daughter) mom! (mom) oh, tha

former new york city police commissioner and trump ally, bernie kerik will meet with special counsel jack smith in a matter of days. kerik worked alongside rudy giuliani in the weeks after the 2020 election to try to search for evidence of fraud that could have shifted the election in trump's favor. kerik's attorney tells cnn that he's going to speak to jack smith and his team of prosecutors about the trump's team unfounded claims of voter fraud. earlier this month, you'll remember, kerik turned over lots of documents about those claims, after previously shielding some of them from congress and federal investigators on the grounds of attorney/client privilege. >> so you may have noticed in the process of the six and a half minutes we spent walking through all of the different elements of this, the president has a lot of legal issues. and that also means he has to spend a lot of money. his political action committee has to spend it, i should be very clear on that. more than $40 million on legal fees alone for the former president and his associates this year alone, according to a sour

new evidence, thousands of pages linked to efforts by rudy giuliani and former nypd commissioner bernie kerik to uncover voter fraud. and for trump, it is forging ahead with his presidential campaign as if none of this is happening. scheduling at least three campaign stops in the next five days alone. i want to bring in nbc's vaughn hillyard in new orleans where the former president is hosting a fund-raising event. yasmin vossoughian is keeping a close eye on the courthouse in washington. and barbara mcquaid is a former u.s. attorney, law professor at the university of michigan and msnbc legal analyst. great to have all of you here. yasmin, what is new where you are today? >> i tell you, chris, as you said, this is really a very much a waiting game. you hustle down here and then we wait it out, but you're worried about the second you turn your back and then something actually breaks. let me walk you through what we know right now, speaking to our producer inside the courtroom. we know a grand jury has convened. but it is not the grand jury that we are watching for, right. we can't definitivel

that would be, you know, idiotic for the special counsel to bring charges before speaking with bernie kerik, but that is because their argument is that he was, you know, running down all of these legitimate concerns or questions, and so, obviously, this wasn't a corrupt intent. but, you know, the counternarrative to this is that none of these election fraud claims were legitimate. the courts were throwing them out. there were affidavits by people that just were never substantiated. but you know, he's one of these witnesses that he was involved in theis effort, he's someone that smith's team would want to talk to, to want to understand exactly what conversations he had. obviously, he turned over those documents. they already spoke with rudy giuliani. but, you know, as this investigation, if anything, we've seen it, it is so expansive. and they're almost leaving no stone unturned, talking to nearly everybody. that interview, his lawyer said, is in the next week, but smith's team can operate on their own schedule. they don't have to wait to talk to him. he's not the centerpiece of this investi

>> bernie kerik is an interesting witness, and quietly one of the more important ones. here's why. he is very much pro-maga, very aggressively on the side of donald trump. at the same time, he is the source of information that is damaging to donald trump. for example, he was rudy giuliani's lead investigator, and he provided information or there was information provided in the january 6th committee that his investigation concluded, for example, that there was no problem with the dominion voting machines or that they couldn't find anything. so on one level he's providing this information that there was no there there, but on the other sides looking at just his social media and his stance over the last few years, he's very much on trump's side. keep in mind also, he is a pardoned felon, so he's familiar with the system, and i would think that when it comes to cooperating with the government that he has a knowledge of what he's dealing with. he knows he doesn't want to go back to being a convicted felon. those are the kind of people that the government can use, and by that i mean the

last night had another lawyer in this circle on tv and he was saying that one of his clients, bernie kerik, a man close to rudy giuliani working on the election fraud efforts, been getting inquiries from the special counsel's office, too, and that's not even scheduled yet. where this investigation still goes and how an indictment would factor into that now that a target letter has been sent to the former president, there is really a lot of different ways this could play out. >> all right. thank you very much. and in terms of how we actually got here, well, cnn's senior legal analyst -- sorry. and former assistant u.s. attorney in the district of new york elie honig is here. >> we are getting a sense of what a potential donald trump indictment could look like. the new reporting is that the target letter listed three federal statutes. the crimes in the target letter could end up in the indictment but that's not necessarily going to happen. deprivation of civil rights. whose civil items? all of us to cast our pilots and have a full and free election. the second, conspiracy to commit an offens

we don't expect, erin, for example, that there's a number of witnesses still yet to come, like bernie kerik. we don't expect that affects the calendar here. we expect they could vote as soon as tomorrow. >> all right. now, obviously, you've got that possible huge development. you also have in the mar-a-lago case for jack smith, new surveillance video surfacing. we know the superseding indictment talked all about their efforts to hide videos. so, this seems pretty extraordinary. now we've got more footage. what do you know about it? >> this is in a court filing the prosecution made, certainly to sort of explain to the judge why they're producing some of the stuff to the defense team. as you know, they have to produce all of this information as part of the production for the defense. here is what they say today. they say that they received new video that was related to the new obstruction claims that were made by prosecutors in the latest indictment that was published on thursday. that was handed up on thursday. they say that this was new footage they received, again, since the initial indict

. >> okay and ryan, former nypd commissioner, bernie kerik, is meeting with the special counsel's team next month. and this comes after former trump white house aide, william russell, appeared before a grand jury this week. we also now have learned that former trump lawyer, rudy giuliani, also met with jack smith's team earlier this year. so, what kind of information could these witnesses be offering to the special counsel? and how critical may they be? >> in the case of will russell, we actually got a little bit of a peek into that, which was really interesting because first of all, his attorney was representing another january 6th defendant or rather a january 6th defendant in court, who was actually scheduled for his what turned out to be conviction. so, that lawyer was actually late to that hearing because of this ongoing questioning behind closed doors, which normally is typically secret, and we don't hear a lot about. when that attorney general blamed the judge, basically asked him to explain why he was late, and the lawyer laid out stanley -- laid out that his client was being a

we also learned that bernie kerik the former new york city police commissioner who served as giuliani's lead investigator on the ground not only handed over a trove of documents to special counsel but he is scheduled to sit for an interview in early august, hands raising a lot of questions about the timing of that indictment. we learned also that two more fake electors have been subpoenaed by the special counsel, and the prosecutors are reportedly scrutinizing those mark meadow text messages, the ones that mocked rudy giuliani's election fraud came's, lol, laughing about it, all of it. then there's georgia, where fulton county district attorney fani willis is investigating trump's efforts to steal the election in her state. she has repeatedly, for months now, sent up smoke signal's that indictment could be coming soon. if you remember back in may, willis warned atlanta courts that she had instructed the majority of her staff to work remotely, starting in early august, and asked judges not to schedule trials during the special three-week period. that three-week period starts this monday,

bernie kerik says the former nypd commissioner said he is speaking with the feds. he spoke with a potential witness or more who were surprised that he has not been contacted by the special counsel. >> reporter: right. we were talking during that about the others that may be feeling the heat in the situation. different heat than joe biden was talking about. one individual who was surprised that he was not feeling that heat was former congressman mo brooks from alabama. i talked to him last night. he spoke at that ellipse event on january 6. he was that congressman who said it was time for american pate -- patriots to take names. when he was running for senate, he told me a little over a year ago, he told me that donald trump had urged him while he was in congress to rescind the 2020 presidential election and to help him get joe biden out of office and have a new election. he said donald trump was urging him to take those motions. why is the fact he has not gone before the special counsel relevant? either one, of course, as you laid out, kerik will go before the spec

after the presidency he has a date with the grand jury, we believe this week, and then bernie kerik whoas assisting rudy giuliani in a lot of this, he, too, has been in touch with the special counsel's office and is trying to get something scheduled. there's still pieces of this investigation moving forward, but the amount of work that the special counsel's office has done, so much of it has focused on donald trump himself, what he was saying, what he was doing, what he was thinking and exactly what happened in the west wing after he lost the 2020 election, was being told he lost the 2020 election and still was telling his supporters that they could fight and that they could overturn the result. sara? >> that is still happening while this investigation is clearly continuing forward. katelyn polantz, thank you so much for your reporting on all of this. >>> kate, i think there is nothing more to say about how deeply this special prosecutor has gone to try to get every single detail that he possibly can, but what an extraordinary time we are living n we have never seen this happen in our h