this is not the caliph. this is not the caliphate. go to work tomorrow. >> this is interesting because something that was mentioned it doesn't matter how the caliph is declared. regardless, it becomes obligatory for everyone to succumb and pledge allegiance. that is not actually true. there is a lot of talk amongst the scholars today about a means towards the end. it is not sufficient just to say the caliphate, which is the unity of muslim technically, that it's obligatory, that it doesn't matter how you get there as long as you get there. right now, one of the scholars today, in an interview he said if the means end in bloodshed as isis has been doing it can turn the obligation into impermissible because you're causing more destruction on your path, and you're disturbining the peace, so it does matter. when it doesn't matter when the miss limbs are i wil illiterate . a lot of muslims are not aware of their own tradition. so when they see the work of al baghdadi, it is very--and that goes back to something, , trying to gain legitimacy

caliphate.le believe he is bring it back. how to defeat them basically. in addition to the military strike this is a generational issue. we have to intercept the next generation. these guys were 12-year-old or 14-year-old on 9/11. we have to make sure that the next-generation is not going to go jihadist. >> the influence of iran is what? on this whole problem. >> iran is the biggest winner in all of this. because they are still holding the puppet strings and keeping assad in power in syria. in iran the human rights violations. no one is calling them out on that. the west has loosened the sanctions and have the economic breathing space. they are not afraid their people will be out on the streets and we have given them the time to go after the nuc program that is missing. and time to play out the clock and get nuclear arms. >> everything isis does takes money and lots of it, and they have it. how do they get it and can we stop their cash flow? that's coming up. i'm the proud dad of three beautiful

the head is known as a caliph.est suggests killing him as fast as possible, really may be the key to destroying this terrorist organization. joining me now, grant wood, contributing editor of the new republic. thank you for coming on today. >> thank you for having me. >> let's just get right into al baghdadi, leader of isis. what does he want? is it about this territory, this caliphate? is it fame? is it to be bigger than osama bin laden? >> well, he wants the caliphate to really turn back time to the golden age of the caliphs, which happened in the 7th century a.d., quite a long time ago. and he wants to revive that institution and be head of it. >> by being the head of this caliphate, what would that mean for him, for those who would like to join? >> so to be the caliph of the muslim world means to command the allegiance of all the world's muslims. so in his view, if you are not with him, you're against him, even if you are a muslim. so what he has been able to do is to take control of a large swath of territory

they say they want the caliphate. then we have got radicalized americans and terrorists here. >> if we pressure them, they will try to deter us. if you don't strike full fledge, they are going to do -- if we do they are going to order them to strike. >> if we do nothing? >> if we do nothing they will do nothing but they will continue in the middle east. if they continue in the middle east they will get to the situation we have a little sunni iran. >> be unstoppable. and the thing to do now is to use that air power to go after high value targets and logistics support bases, their training centers in iraq and elsewhere. >> and their money? >> yes. but you don't use airplane for that the problem with air power alone and that's all we have got right now. no one ever captured a piece of ground, terrorist or set a prisoner free with air power alone. it takes tough men with rifles on the ground. >> imagine it as a pool some people around the pool have to go in. some should not go in. regime should not go in. iran should not

they say they want the caliphate.ave got radicalized americans and terrorists here. >> if we pressure them, they will try to deter us. if you don't strike full fledge, they are going to do -- if we do they are going to order them to strike. >> if we do nothing? >> if we do nothing they will do nothing but they will continue in the middle east. if they continue in the middle east they will get to the situation we have a little sunni iran. >> be unstoppable. and the thing to do now is to u that air power to go after high value targets and logistics support bases, their training centers in iraq and elsewhere. >> and their money? >> yes. but you don't use airplane for that the problem with air power alone and that's all we have got right now. no one ever captured a piece of ground, terrorist or set a prisoner free with air power alone. it takes tough men with rifles on the ground. >> imagine it as a pool some people around the pool have to go in. some should not go in. regime should not go in. iran should not go in, they

he talks about this caliphate and how he says the idea of an islamic caliphate's absurd, a feckless delusion that's never going to happen. i want to get your reaction to what he said. this is all prior to isis in syria and iraq. >> our strategy is also shaped by a deeper understanding of al qaeda's goals, strategy and tactics that we have gained over the last decade. i'm not talking about al qaeda's grand dlpds iose vision of global domination through a violent islamic caliphate. that vision is absurd and we're not going to organize our counterterrorism policies against a feckless delusion that is never going to happen. we are not going to elevate these thugs and their murderous aspirations into something larger than they are. >> i actually believe radical islamists that say they want a worldwide caliphate. he said that actually prior to what happened in syria. and he said that prior to all these cities being taken over by isis in iraq. what's your reaction? don't you think that the threat of a caliphate by the radical islamists is real? >> certainly. and i think those were ill-chosen words.

are they pushing for a caliphate there? >> i think it's really disturbing as i listen to that is that it shows a man who clearly refuses to recognize what has to be crossing his desk as the latest intelligence. he can read the rand, the study report. he can listen to what the director of the dia says, the defense intelligence agency, about a doubling in the size of the terrorist organizations they're after. he can look at what has happened over the course of the last few weeks as isis has moved into and now controls the eastern part of syria and the northern part of iraq. with a man like that advising the president as director of intelligence, it's no wonder the president doesn't understand what's going on out there. >> how do you view the treatment of israel? >> well, i think the treatment of israel -- i think there are a lot of nations in that part of the world that deserve to have strong u.s. support. and israel obviously is right there at the top of the list. but that's true also of the jordanians and saudis and emirate

they want to build a caliphate. they want to build a nation and to do that you need enormous sums of money and resources. tellingly, they have been taking a lot of money they're generating and some estimates are they're earning $4 million a day through illicit oil sales and pumping that back into this government that they're trying to build. delivering services to citizens in some towns in iraq. everything down to picking up the trash and delivering basic services. so in the same way that any government would try to fund itself through a source of revenue, isis is trying to do the same thing and it's extraordinary how much they've been able to generate largely through theft. they've stolen it from banks, from taking over oil fields. al qaeda has to do this much more incrementally and much more secretly. isis is doing it more like a criminal organization that runs in and robs the banks and takes over the oil fields and then goes from there. >> what's our ability to interfere with that? ordinarily if there's a hostile

isis declared they're the caliphate. now last month boko haram declared they're the caliphate, too. nigeria is a big country, the most populous country in africa. 170 million people. and boko haram did not declare the caliphate in all of nigeria, they declared it in northern nigh sxwreer ya and eastern nigeria along the board wer cameroon. that geography is helpful for understanding the efforts to fight boko haram so far. you understand those reports that when nigeria sent its troops out there to go fight boko haram, instead of fighting them, the nigerian troops threw down their weapons and fled into over the border of the neighboring nation of cameroon. the iraqi troops that dropped their weapons and left the keys in the tank, nigeria has had the same problems when they get their troops to fight boko haram. like isis, boko haram does operate like a terrorist organization but they also operate sort of like an army a lot of advanced and heavy weapons. they're a large group. they're holding territory after they take it. they don't just attack and leave. they hold territory, they clear

but the caliphate is at the heart of the matter. >> let's talk about the ca caliphate. i.s.i.l. created a massive refugee crises over the past week, the u.s. says there will be no combat troops fighting but u.s. joint chiefs general dempsey might suggest forces if he thinks they are needed. would the better strategy be keep our enemies guessing, even if that would force the president to back off of his foreign policy achievement, getting u.s. forces out of iraq? >> they would be better off with silence than anything else. but if they want to use deception, that's fine. they should keep the islamic state confused about what they're going to do. but there really ought to be extremely thorough, in their attacks on the islamic state. i think going slowly, talking about how it's going to take a long time, talking about that ultimately we will be able to get rid of it, if that's a guide to their behavior, and not deception, it's a bad guide. because we americans don't do real well in long wars, like vietnam. we do pretty well in short ones like world war ii. and we need to destroy the

they think their caliphate which is arab is more important than the original caliphate which is turkish. they believe the only legitimate religious belief is their particular harsh brand of sun they islam. -- sunny isla-- sunni islam. >> isis emerged from the terror group al qaeda in iraq or aqi. >> the predecessor group to that is a group zawahri started. >> during operation iraqi freedom abu musab zarqawi came the head of kqi. >> isis has been able to eclipse for al qaeda the rule of state they are not hiding in caves on the margins of the islamic world. they have a lot of fellas that fought jihad from afghanistan many against armed forces and iraq government forces in iraq as well as many against the government forces of bish charral assad of syria. when you put these together and adds those to the fact that the united states has not been there for the course of several years. >> the terrorist army of isis is now estimated to have more than 30 fighters in 70 countries. the way they achieve their goals is horrific. when isis takes over a tir to-- territory is imposes sharia such as am

>> a muslim caliphate, a single islamic state. >> everything about the caliph's outfit is meant to evoke the early islamic empire. >> jon: they want a caliphate, much like the empire ruled by the umayyads's in the seventh and eighth centuries. i hope you notified your recruits that life in the caliphate will be less pizza hut and more hut. [laughter] but setting aside the historical authenticity of isis methods, why exactly do you want your own country? you seem quite adapt at the depraved killing part. are you really prepared to do the little things you need to do to run a functioning state. >> they provide a modicum of order. >> they have their own courts. >> they're issuing license plates. >> isis militants now direct traffic. >> jon: oh, you're directing traffic. that must be so hard in a city with eight cars left. [laughter] you know, i wouldn't be so proud of accomplishing a job where you could be replaced by a colored light, all right? here's a question for you, guys who want to establish their own state, who is going to pay that guy's pension? how are you going to raise money to

he has declared himself the head, the kay live of the new state -- caliph of the new state, the caliphate. he was involved in al qaeda leadership for decades. he was literally the number three in al qaeda of iraq, the first franchise. he has a doctorate degree. he was born in iraq, he understands iraq. he understands that it is his destiny from his opinion, to fulfill the re-establishment of the caliphate and he has no interest in waiting. he's on the march. he made a statement in january of this year that i read previously but it's one that bears repeating. he said this to the united states. he said, soon we'll be in direct confrontation with you, united states, so watch out for us. for we are with you. watching. and that's why we need to understand that we very likely have islamic jihaddist terrorists here in the united states today. we know that there are those who went to join isis, who have returned to the united states, they are terrorists. we need to call them for who they are. they aren't engaged in workplace violence, as our former head of homeland security erroneously said. they

the desire for an islamic caliphate. who's right, me or president obama? that's a hard one. >> well, i'm on your show, so obviously you're right. but the bottom line is islamic supre supremacy has been for -- not for all muslims but the bottom line in the last century since the rise of the muslim brotherhood in which isis actually was created its roots go back a hundred years. we've seen the muslim brotherhood, we've seen hamas, hezbollah, al qaeda, now we see isis, they all want to rule the world. and the caliphate is the chief prize. >> sunni, shia, doesn't matter, destroy israel, destroy the west and advance this convert or die philosophy. >> there have been other brutal caliphates in islamic history. >> that's true. we can go back to the 600 a.d., right? >> we can go back to 614. we can go back to the -- but even al qaeda has not been as brutal. yet they have -- you know, look, it's all relative. al qaeda killed 3,000 people, you know, in 2001. the reality is this fwrup here knows how to use the media and propagate its fear and exaggerate it. >> let me

is learned that you the caliph can grant leniency. i ask you not to punish my son over matters he has no control over. >> now, evidently in spite of that heart-felt plea there is a statement out that says in part the family knows of this horrific tragedy and is grieving privately. they ask for privacy during a very difficult time. >> thanks, mike viqueira at the white house. we go to analysts filmmaker and friend of stephen sotloff and james foley. matthew, good to have you on the program. all the information you have heard indicates that your friend has been killed. what are your thoughts? >> it's very difficult. i lost two friends in two weeks to a ruthless organization, and it's--it's tragic. i've spoken with the families before. i'm sure they're heartbroken. >> had a are your thoughts--it just occurred to ask you this, what are your thoughts about isis, isil, at this point. the cause that they're fighting for this islamic caliphate. >> they're radical lunatics. they take a path that most muslims don't agree with. they've captured

they share al qaeda's ideology of establishing a caliphate. caliphate.- global what happened was al musra was a syrian extremist group that established itself after the syrian civil war started. they were recognized by zawahiri in pakistan as the al qaeda group in syria. you have aqi who decided they wanted to join the fight in the move across the border and he says no. your fight is in iraq and they said no, we are doing our own thing and we want to get in the game of here. so zawahiri disowned them because they would not follow his orders. some people say incorrectly he disowned them because of their brutality. that is nonsense. they are every bit as brutal. look what they did. it is over whether you are willing to listen to zawahiri and take his orders or not. >> this goes against the advice of zawahiri. and before of all some of them on -- of osama bin laden. don't get out too far. that is the difference. >> al qaeda and pakistan's focus is attacking the u.s. first and cutting off the head of the snake as they call it. and then second gett

and that is the caliphate. that is a takeover of the region. and guess what? we're next on the hit list. so when barack obama like the rest of us here these bad guys, these terrorists, promising that they will raise the flag of allah over our white house, for the life of me i don't know why he does not take this serious, the threat. because, yes, it's more than a vision. they're -- just like hitler did all those years ago when a war could have been avoided because hitler too did not hide his intentions. well, isis, these guys aren't hiding their intentions either. >> all right, governor, thank you. good to see you. appreciate it. coming up, what does the muslim community think of president obama's address last night? we'll get reaction to how the military is responding to the commander in chief's plan. but first on this program we'll never forget what happened 13 years ago today when terrorists attacked us. worst attack on american soil. we won't forget. >> a plane just crashed into the world trade center. >> right now we're all alone. the second building come

when they think about their caliphate it is bigger than iraq and syria. and the impact of the region and sectarian war in the region and the redrawing of all these lines in the middle east and i think it was their very quick movement and success that got everybody's attention and said we had to do something. >> and the beheading caught the public's anger. >> and changed the public overnight. >> rather than being sucked into another conflict began to say they could not do this without reprisal. very interesting look at the question, does isis understand this or not because if you were advising isis -- they have miscalculated. if you were advising them you would say do not do that. do not behead these people, let them go. if you do this you will in the -- ignite passions -- >> here is not -- fear is a central heart of their modus operandi. general dempsey said if all that fails we may need ground troops. would you assume he meant and do you assume that the president expected him to say that? >> i think general dempsey was misquoted. the president -- >> misq

granted they're not a state, but they do want to establish a caliphate. i got the sense from listening to the president don't that he doesn't know what the ultimate goal of a caliphate is. >> i would say he's trying to make the point to the islamic world that this isn't a true or accurate depiction of islam because ultimately we do need and most of the allies around that also are offended and also are worried about the rise of isis are also muslim nations. and i think they will rise up. and ultimately the ultimate victory -- there are going to be short-term victories in the war on terror and the war on radical islam, but the long-term victory is going to require allies who are part of the civilized islamic world. which is the majority of the islamic world. but they have to step up. frankly, they've been allowing too much of this to go on. and frankly countries like saudi arabia i think have aided and abetted the rise of isis. >> the president proclaimed tonight that america is safer. and then he used the success quote in yemen and somalia as examples. i d

they want a caliphate. they want it's a big as possible. they don't want internal caliphate. they want to export terrorism from it. this core differentiating between them and every other terrorist organization. they're the only terrorist organization that organized their own nation-state and they are using that to export terror. melissa: what is the best response? >> the best response is overwhelming military force to destroy people that won't be recalibrated and engage in a political process with those that will. the vast majority of citizens of iraq want a political process that works. that respects rights of all iraqi citizens. even today, with all the mayhem inside of iraq we still have a solid majority of iraqi citizens who want to engage in the political process. the odds are stacked in our favor but they will not fall out in our favor unless we engage in a stubsubstantive political process with the iraqi government. for all practical purposes united states ignored iraq the last couple years. maliki governed iraq in a illegitimate fashion. as a result, we've seen the po

they are all operatives of the islamic caliphate. >> thank you for joining us. minutes till the top of the hour. the massive home depot breach hitting consumers hard. new information on how criminals are using your stolen information. >>> a missing dog mystery after five months and 3,000 miles how that pooch right there finally made her way home. >>> it is now two minutes till the top of the hour. before you leave the house here's what happening. a manhunt underway for jesse matthew. he is now charged with abducting missing u.v.a. student hannah graham. >>> president obama addressing the united nations today. >>> fallout from the home depot act. in some cases draining cash from accounts. so check that out. >> time to look at the good, the bad, and the ugly. first the good. a pennsylvania dog missing for five months found wandering on the side of the road 3,000 miles away in oregon. gidget now home with her owner. next a two-year-old singer going diva=vjq at her mom he her mom laughed at her "frozen" performance. >> mommy! stop laughing. [screaming] >> dad says s

this is now a caliphate. it would cut off that flow. just as far as the importance of mosul.we have seen the address from isis leader al baghdadi speaking to his followers within the caliphate and to the world with the address months ago from the mosque in mosul. it would hurt isis badly if mosul was taken. john, as we know, it is not going to be easy. peshmerga and kurdish forces cannot walk in and take it back. this is densely populated. a city of 2 million people. air strikes have been critical in the area so far will not be effective. they won't want to hit the city in case of inflicting mass casualties. the united states doesn't want collateral damage. it is up to kurdish forces to push isis out of the city. >> to liberate iraq from isis, they have to get rid of isis in the city of mosul. to do that, air strikes is not as effective as the rest of the country. anna, thanks. >>> police on high alert after isis targeting times square. commissioner bill bratton says isis is more dangerous than al qaeda because of the social media use to gather followers. he said militants ar

they have now created in baghdad, the caliph so they have taken the al qaeda idea and moved it ahead al qaeda was not able to strike in western capitals with the ease with which it apparently struck in london and madrid and the united states. so what have they done now? they're drawing us into fights in lands they control. the lands that are most important to them. so i think isis is trying to sort of go beyond what the al-qaeda achieved. >> and bob, we are talking about -- the u.s. is talking about air strikes to try to put an end to isis and destroy and degrade them. on an intelligence level, how weak or how strong are we in terms of figuring out where they are, who they are, and how to stop them. and how important is that piece to the puzzle in addition to the military? >> well, the question is, for instance, how do you decapitate isis, how do you get to baghdadi? he's apparently in raqqa. i would doubt he's going up on cell phones, very difficult to find him. you could carpet bomb that city, but you would kill a lot of sunni. but i think that they would sort of welcome that. the

they share al qaeda's oddology of establishing a global caliphate. what happened was al-nusra was a syrian extremist group that established itself after the syrian civil war started. they were recognized by zawahiri in pakistan as the al qaeda group in syria. so then you had aqi who decides hey, i want to go join that fight. so they move across the border and zawahiri says to them no, no, your fight is in iraq. you stay over there. and they said no, we're doing our own thing here. we want to get in the game over here. so zawahiri disowns them because they wouldn't follow his orders. some people say incorrectly that zawahiri disowned them because of their brutality. that's nonsense. al qaeda in pakistan is every bit as brutal in isis, look what they did to daniel pearl, for example, same thing that isis has done. no, it's over-- it's over-- it's over whether you are willing to listen zawahiri and take his orders or not. >> it is said that isis ambition to create the isltate now goes against the advice of zawahiri and before of osama bin laden. >> righ

the first caliphate was established in 632 a.d. after the death of the prophet mohammed and existed until 1924 when the last one was abolished follow the disillusion of the empire. it was the four caliphates who carried on his vision united under a single state and used military force to extend it to one of the biggest empires in the history of the world. this is the history isis was aligning it self this summer when they renamed itself as simply the islamic state and pronouncing its leader as the caliph and the prince of believers. to some the notion of isis could turn back in time to reclaim the glory years of an institution whose influence waned more than thousands of years ago may seem possible. the original caliphate included a period known as the golden age of islam. renowned for its embrace of multiculturism and intellectualism. there couldn't be a more stark contrast than the extremism, rigid morality and strict interpretation of shia law espoused in the current isis. joining me now bobby ghosh at "quartz" and the fellow at

they want to unite all muslims into the caliphate. >> jon: what's wrong with these guys?torm into a country like iraq, uninvited and destroy the place in the name of implementing your favorite system of government? these people aren't just terrorists. they're plagiarists! (laughter) well, if we're going to be going to war in iraq again, we're going to get one of them coalitions there of the willing. who's gonna stand with their old pal america this time? >> the uk, france, germany, italy, denmark, turkey, poland,canada, and australia. >> jon: we got the band back together! (cheers and applause) it's like when wutang reunited! i mean, that's everybody! any newcomers? >> iran's supreme leader has signed off on a plan to cooperate with the united states to confront the threat of isis. >> jon: that's a weird one. (laughter) wow. i.s.i.s. is so bad that mortal enpies are now joining together. it's like when edward scissorhand teamed up with flat stanley -- (laughter) -- to -- to defeat -- let's say smallpox. they defeated small box. (laughter) all right. so we know our coaliti

>> nobody has heard about this group, and the fact that they refer to the caliphate means that this is very probably a new offshoot of people already in the region deciding to ride the coattails of the new caliphate. all those splinter groups that suddenly reveal themselves, half of them were created very recently, and they join or do not join the center again, but they were part of the nebulous region. >> is france changing the way it deals with hostage takings and ransom payments? we do know that has paid ransoms for the release of hostages in the past. was something different here? >> that is an interesting question. i would not think that the policy was changed at the time of negotiations over this hostage because presumably, negotiations must have been going on for months. you have a third group that may very well have stolen the hostage back again. they are worth something. the french have said that they would stop paying ransom, but they never admitted to officially paying ransoms in the past. whether we will change one day, i do not know. >> thank you very much. >> ok, to brita

one supreme leader. >> our fighters have rushed to the caliphate and appointing imam their leader. it is a duty to muslims that has been lost through the centuries. >> already controlling large parts of syria and iraq, the group wants to, in its words free palestine and conquer jordan and lebanon. >> only one country. we also have only one imam. >> u.s. officials say it has 15,000 active fighters from 81 countries. >> we have brothers from bangladesh iraq, cambodia, australia, u.k. >> islamic state members say anyone not part of their group is not a true muslim and therefore a legitimate target in their holy war. islam's highest authorities reject the ideology totally. >> it is painful that such inhumane crimes are committed in the name of islam, which is a religion of mercy. >> their ideas may be rejected by mainstream muslims, but their message and sophisticated propaganda machines of finding a growing audience. >> in just one weeks time, voters in scotland go to the polls to decide if they want to break away from the rest of the u.k. the last stages have become very tight. the r

i just want to stress, however, that the islamic state version of the caliphate is not the version thatost aspire to. they're taking a very different tact, if you like, and their interpretation is their interpretation of the caliphate. >> tell me about the interpretation? >> well, you know, tell me you can see it clearly in iraqi city in syria. the only one of syria's 14 provincial areas, the islamic state sort of pushed them out of the territory, and it made the city defec their de facto capitol. the women must cover their face and enveloping black cloak. you must pray five times a day. it is all mandatory. there is no option. there is no leeway, if you like. you know, ther they're ignoring the could you ran there is no force in religion. >> do you plan to go back to reporting. >> yes, i hope so. throughout three years there was a period of three or four months when i couldn't go. i think that we have to keep going. but it's always--there is a calculated risk. don't be foolhardy. we're not plunging head first into danger. we all have family. and nobody wants to end up in an orange jump

they are under the influence of abu bakr al-baghdadi with his islamic caliphate. all of this together represents a real threat in the minds of the british public. and the british government. with what we see with the three orange-clad hostages, it's a group that's clicked in to the 21st century when it comes to understand what opponents are up to. it must have been a major concern. >> very much so. you are spot-on with that. one of the things. the use of social media and careful editing of the videos. to send them to media organizations. what is the aim of that. the aim is to cow the opposition. for example, the is racky military -- iraqi military collapsed at the thought they may be taken hostage and shot. the peshmerga in the kurdish areas were influenced by the very sophisticated media approaches. and this is one of the best fund the operations ever. not only did they steel money from banks in motorcyclel, they are support -- mosul, they are supported by some countries outside. even they they appear to think they are safe within syria, now, of course, cameron a

they are a caliphate. they are establishing a religious empire in which they'll kill everyone who is not of their religion. >> how about the payment of ransoms for hostages, something the u.s. doesn't do, something that britain doesn't do, but something that some european countries apparently do do? is there a time for that to end? >> no. we should not pay ransom for the hostages. if one is captured, one has to egard one's self as ready to die. that is -- that sort of compromise, which gives them something hoping that they will back down is exactly the wrong kind of thing to do with this kind of totalitarian movement. >> thank you very much, indeed, for joining us. as the world focuses once again on the brutality the islamic state, we have a disturbing report on some who may join their ranks. some in afghanistan allied to the taliban told the bbc they are considering joining forces with the islamic states. they say they'll fight against the afghan government even if nato forces leave afghanistan at the end

the creation of caliphate. the islamic state is a different story. in many muslim countries there is a desire for, among some, certainly the islamists, for some kind of islamic state. but even there, it's more complicated because ishadi said in the past we have no clear paradigm for what would call an islamic state. there's no single paradigm. in terms of today if you look at data by gallup and other organizations, they want democracy and not a secular state and some form of sharia and doesn't qualify as islamic state but there's a certain influence. i don't think for many muslims the notion to the appeal of caliphate by isis resonates. and if you study would be the case and if it did resonate, to free them would be a hell of a lot more successful than it has been. and the final comment is with regard to the u.s. policy and whether the u.s. is behind this or that and it's out there but part of the problem we have is on the one hand we tell a story historically that we're the power and can go in and we celebrate