this as we get new reports that the top aide to the former irs commissioner, doug shulman, who has been at the white house scores of times, oh, i was for the easter egg roll. guess how many times his chief of staff is listed? it dwarfs the time mr. shulman went? he knows nothing about taxes. he is a political guy. what was he doing there? we will look into that. >>> up next, we will speak to a jury consultant that was in the zimmerman courtroom for every part of the jury selection. wait until you hear the facts she has about these jurors next. >>> is this jury panel acceptable to you, sir? >> yes, your honor. constipation, diarrhea, gas, bloating? yes! one phillips' colon health probiotic cap each day helps defend against these digestive issues with three strains of good bacteria. live the regular life. phillips'. >> back now to our top story. the george zimmerman murder trial. he is the self-described neighborhood watchman that admits to killing an unarmed black teenager but says he did so in defense. the prosecutors and defense have selected a jury. it is all female. five are white, t

. >> and in march of 2013, doug shulman and the head of the irs assured the american people in congress this was not happening, correct? >> yes, in fact he did that a year ago in response to questions -- >> that's right, march 2012. that's correct. >> 2012. that's right. >> i want to ask you both the same question that is puzzling to me. shulman met -- shulman went to the white house 157 times. his answer was well i was there for an easter egg hunt. nobody as i checked the records records -- the to be cabinet memberss were not there 157 times. >> there was sure an awful lot of conversation -- well, number one it is inexplicable. how do you explain 159 visits by the irs to the white house. they can't be talking about that much tax policy. there were not that many changes to the internal revenue code. you wonder what was going on here. you asked the right questions about this, it it is who knew what and when. until we do our discovery in this litigation we are involved in that we will really get an answer to that. >> what is it specifically that matters? in my mind this is about intimidat

. >> sean: and cleta, in march of 2013, doug shulman, then the head of the irs, assured the a american and congress this was notres happening, corr? >> yes. in fact, he did that a year ago in response to questions fromque congressman jordan and others. >> sean: that's right. march 2012. >> 2012, uh-huh. that's right. >> sean: it. want to ask you boh ofsk youç the same question ths puzzling to me, isç shulman met -- went to the white house 157 times. now his answer was, well, i wasa there oncp for an easter egg hunt, whatever it is, and nobody as i checked the records, thein topet cabinet members of obama, jay, they've not been there 157 times. what do you think -- sure a lot of conversation -- well, inexplicable. i don't know how you explain 159 visits by the head of the irs to the white house. can they can't be possibly be talking about that much tax policy, because there weren't that many changes to the internal revenue code.n you wonder what was going onke here. the you asked the right questions from the beginning of this, sean. it isñr who knew what and when. i don't think until

last week we told you you that former irs chief doug shulman visited the white house 157 times more than any other department head. it wasn't even close. logically you ask the white house to explain those meetings with whom did mr. shulman chat and what was the subject on all 157 occasions? any honest reporter would ask that question and the white house should provide the answer immediately. incredibly before my analysis last thursday there were no mentions last week plaintiff shulman's apundit visits to the white house on cnn. on nbc, on cbs, or on nbc. none, nad darks zip. -- nada, zip. that is what is called a news blackout. targeted. if the irs boss visits the white house 157 times, that's a big story. now, it would be wrong for any honest reporter to lay the irs scandal at the feet of president obama. to this point there is no evidence that is he involved. there is evidence that his deputies are involved. and we could be repeating history. on june 17th, 1972, some thugs broke into the democratic national headquarters at the watergate hotel in washington. two days later, the "the was

i found that to be damning and indicting. >> doug shulman was a bush appointee that was a holdover. > to that again. >> are we going to -- are you going to allow me to talk or just interrupt me the whole time. >> go ahead. >> sean: james, go ahead. >> secondly part of her job is according to a white house biowas implementation of affordable care act. and i think that is -- if thisth is a question then chairman issa or whatever should call her up there and ask her and put her under oath. i don't have any problem with that. >> sean: what is one thing that surprised me is that nobody in the administration has been put under oath to this time. i want to ask you both about susan rice and powers if i can for just a moment. >> sure. >> james, you know i was a staunch critic of the clinton administration. >> right. >> sean: i never called powers -- i never called hillary is monster. powers did. do you think susan rice appointment was just to poke people in the eye? that was is a good move 12346789. >> she is eminently qualified. an ambassador. i think that the president likes her. and he felt

. >> sean: and cleta, in march of 2013, doug shulman, then the head of the irs, assured the a american and congress this was notres happening, corr? >> yes. in fact, he did that a year ago in response to questions fromque congressman jordan and others. >> sean: that's right. march 2012. >> 2012, uh-huh. that's right. >> sean: it. want to ask you boh ofsk youç the same question ths puzzling to me, isç shulman met -- went to the white house 157 times. now his answer was, well, i wasa there oncp for an easter egg hunt, whatever it is, and nobody as i checked the records, thein topet cabinet members of obama, jay, they've not been there 157 times. what do you think -- sure a lot of conversation -- well, inexplicable. i don't know how you explain 159 visits by the head of the irs to the white house. can they can't be possibly be talking about that much tax policy, because there weren't that many changes to the internal revenue code.n you wonder what was going onke here. the you asked the right questions from the beginning of this, sean. it isñr who knew what and when. i don't think until

. >> sean: and cleta, in march of 2013, doug shulman, then the head of the irs, assured the a american and congress this was notres happening, corr? >> yes. in fact, he did that a year ago in response to questions fromque congressman jordan and others. >> sean: that's right. march 2012. >> 2012, uh-huh. that's right. >> sean: it. want to ask you boh ofsk youç the same question ths puzzling to me, isç shulman met -- went to the white house 157 times. now his answer was, well, i wasa there oncp for an easter egg hunt, whatever it is, and nobody as i checked the records, thein topet cabinet members of obama, jay, they've not been there 157 times. what do you think -- sure a lot of conversation -- well, inexplicable. i don't know how you explain 159 visits by the head of the irs to the white house. can they can't be possibly be talking about that much tax policy, because there weren't that many changes to the internal revenue code.n you wonder what was going onke here. the you asked the right questions from the beginning of this, sean. it isñr who knew what and when. i don't think until

doug shulman who had been cleared by the white house 157 times when asked what he was doing there, you know, i went to the easter egg roll. that is just con tell us on -- ton temp ui us on to the american people? >> they are self imbuid with power. nobody is watching the store. they think they are independent. the fact, this exists throughout the government. each one of on these agencies have found themselves so to speak powerful within itself and nobody is coming them. it's getting worse and worse. big government is on theory that is pervasive throughout what we are doing and it has to stop. >> eric, you talk to any event planner out there. they do have a big lavish conferences like this. for companies that have the money to spend, all the power to them. irs doesn't have this kind of budget. to austan's earlier point, they need these conferences. they have to learn what the hell is going on. >> eric: before we move on, tell me, who decided to target conservative groups? we have known it came from cincinnati but cincinnati is pointing their finger at d.c., some lawyer didn't come up wi

doug shulman who had been to the white house or cleared by the white house 157 times over the last coupleyears. when asked what was doing there, he said something to the effect of, you kw, i went to the easter egg roll. th is just conmptuous to the american people; is it not? >> it's arrogance beyondt. that is what i said before. these things are out of control in the sense they are self-imbued with a power. and nody is watching the store. they think that they are independent. it's the fact that they -- this exists throughout the government. each one of thesing as has found themselves -- each one of these agencies found themselv, so to speak, powerful within itself. nobody i controllin them. it's getting worse and worse. so big government is a they that is pervasive throughout what we are doing and it has to stop. >> wait. quick. eric, you talk to any event planner out there. they do have big lavish conferences like this. but for companies that have the money to spend, all the power to them. the i.r.s. doesn't have this kind of budget. to au stan's earlier point, look, they need the confe

doug shulman, a george w. bush appointee to head the irs, was head of the irs during all this escapading, apparently. >> that's right. he left toward the end of 2012, november 2012. so in fact, all of those travels and things like that were all under his watch. >> what stuns me is, you know, i can understand in probably a job that requires a lot of tedious work, hard work, repetitive work, and maybe certainly indoor work at a desk. you'd never get up. they figure that every couple months they have to give their employees something to look forward to. i understand that. but why do they take 2,600 employees from out here on the beltway and fly them all the way to california, to anaheim, for a conference? why didn't they go to, like, williamsburg or somebody by bus or something you can do without this enormous expense of travel? any explanation? >> it's crazy, especially since, remember, there was the gsa scandal, the government service administration scandal over lavish spending and craziness. and that -- these

i've got to raise the issue of doug shulman's wife. the director of the irs. activist. we're looking for connections between the irs scandal and targeting. the presidential campaign or the white house and here we are doug shulman's wife, a leftist activist, led to believe there's never any discussion of what the irs was doing during the election with his wife, who is a leftist activist. i mean, do you have any comment on that? >> just that there's a very interesting connection in the sense that one of the amend targets of her group, a public campaign, are the koch brothers and leaking taxpayer information to the irs relates to the koch brothers. you look at leaking information and targeting donors of organizations, this is going to get a special inquiry, especially since we now know as the deputy commissioner and acting commissioner that mr. shulman knew about the activities and concealed them for almost two years and misled congress. >> he visited the white house an unprecedented 157 times. we don't know and he's not saying who he talked to and what he talked

. >> that was former irs commission tier drug shulm -- doug shulman.icans believe him? let's bring back the studio audience. do you believe him? nobody believes him. it is 157 times we learned anybody think he was there for coffee, tea and crumb pets. >> easter eggs. >> west jersey tea party i am the founder. in august of 2010 we filed for 501 c 3 status. like many of the people in the audience we had the same inclusive questions being asked of us. such as the communications between our members and members of congress, our representatives of the state house as well as the qualifications of the people we brought in whether or not they could speak on the topics we had chosen for them to speak on. it was an incretrusive devil topment. we saw the membership losses occur right after we put the vote to all of our members. do you want to cooperate with the irs? they said no our membership began to show off after that. >> they thought they were going to be audited? >> they thought with their association with us as a tea party was going to cause audits for them

now to the irs scandal and the conservative website "daily call "reporting the other day that doug shulman had visited the white house 157 times over four years during the obama administration more than any other cabinet officers and writing "strongly suggest coordination by white house officials in the campaign against president's political opponents." that spawned a number of television segments like this one. >> an investigation by the "daily caller" said the scandal has deeper ties to the white house than we originally thought. here's why. according to the report, "publicly released records show that embattled commissioner douglas shulman visited the white house at least 157 times during the obama administration. more recorded visits than even the most trusted members of the president's cabinet." they were for, by in large, meetings on obama care. so, in a scandal sometimes something sounds really suspicious and some media outlets jump on it, a little too quickly at times. >> this is one of the liabilities of our 24/7 cycle and one of the more famous cases is poor shirley sharrod. deci

. >> in the meeting when the inspector general informed her, steve miller and doug shulman, the same guy went to the white house 157 times when the targeting was taking place. mr. shulman is gone, mr. miller is fired. she was the top-ranking official that was there when this was happening. didn't feel it was incumbent to set the record straight, even though her boss had testified two months prior to congress and said he could give us assurances no targeting going on. every time you pull on a string with this deal, it just unravels more and more from sweetheart deals to the second person taking the fifth to conferences where extravagant spending of taxpayer dollars takes place and on and on it goes, and we'll keep pursuing this. it takes time to get to the truth. you have to interview a lot of people. we're just getting started. >> is it time for a special prosecutor? this has been going on for years, these problems at the irs, with all due respect to congress, a lot of this going on for years, didn't get uncovered. time for a special prosecutor with subpoena power and the power to pr

getting and the irs was the only player left that had to fill out a two page form that they could doug shulman in a lot of -- that they do in a lot of other cases to move the asset for fitture along? whose doesn't move with you virginia's. given how little is necessary to accomplish this and that all of the other players had done their job to finish out the case and finish the distribution of the asset forfeiture. while the federal government got and kept their billion dollars. billion with a b. virginia was trying to get about 100 million today's $125 million we earned with the investigation from a criminal defendant that was sitting in treasury accounts and the irs was the only block. they were the only block left and after eight months of incompetentence it starts to look like more than inconpetenc. >> on an investigation level they do a doesn't job. the minute it crosses from virginia and gets into washington all sorts of bad things seem to happen or more accurately in this case nothing seems to happen. and sat and sat and sat despite help from congressional representatives from virginia a

recently is that during the time period in question roughly the two years between 2010 and 2012 doug shulmanissioner of the irs, visited the white house, and you have heard this, whopping 157 times. so is that tsunami of visits evidence that shulman or someone inside the white house were meeting face to face in a way to keep secret their plot to target the tea party? let's ask the man who preceded shulman in the big job, former irs commissioner mark everson. so mark, i'm delighted that you are with us. now, when you heard the 157 visits, i know that a lot of people have been asking you about it. i mean, did a red flag get raised to the top of the flag pole? >> well, that's a lot of easter eggs, geraldo, if you will. i mean, if it's really going to be dismissed that way. i just think frankly the commissioner bungled this question. because there were two major initiatives here. there was -- tax reform was being discussed by the administration. then the affordable care act, what people call obama care. and the irs has a major role in both of those. so it is understandable that there would be a

. >> geraldo: what did doug shulman tell you when you asked if they were targeting political groups.> we asked about the reports that we were hearing that they were targeting conservative groups based upon ideology for additional audits. he told me not only is it not happening that it couldn't happen. you can imagine when i asked him those questions on the record i was stunned a year later or so to find out that those were in fact incorrect statements. we were certainly misled. >> geraldo: did he lie to you? >> i don't know that he knew at the time but no one came back and currented the record. certainly congress was misled and we are continuing to be misled to this very day. we had the new commissioner before us this last -- earlier this week. i asked him about the groups that are still being held for additional scrutiny by the irs as we speak. you you know, the irs speaks about how they resolved the situation and looking into how it happened in the first place. it is still going on to this very day. as we speak on this program there are now 236 groups that still have not to have th

mcconnell now blame him for that an as if he was somehow a puppeteer sending the messages -- you know doug shulman, republican holdover and lois lerner, all these other people, they're all au totally nonpartisan people. a lot of them happen to be republican, at least the pain guy was. why would anybody accuse the president of intimidating president of intimidating them into screwing the right wing? what evidence have you got? how about the answer to the question first. let's start with the -- i know this is a heat-chasing show. i love heat. let's start with facts. do we have a fact of a connection? >> well, as mitch mcconnell himself said in the speech, there's no evidence that the president called over to the irs. >> let me go to the further quote so you're fully informed here. he talked about it being a coordinated campaign that led to this happening, coordinated to use the levers of power from the preds. now, what are you saying here? the president was involved in the irs mess or not? >> well, i think what mr. mcconnell is saying, mitch mcconnell, he's been a fierce advocate for the first amend

as you will remember, we knew that the former irrelevancy commissioner doug shulman visited the whitethan 120 times. daily caller reported 157 times. what was he doing there? this morning we have new shocking information. >> clayton: we don't know actually how many times he showed up. he said he went to some easter egg rolls at the white house. he was authorized to go to the white house maybe 157 times and again to the records, the record keeping there is terrible. the white house says we are transparent. we have -- we keep all these wonderful records yet, no one knows where they are. they can't really keep track. we don't know how many times he went. his aid may have got hundreds of more times. >> tucker: 300 times. jonathan davis described himself not as a tax expert but as a political advisor to doug shulman then head of the irs. we know he visited or was authorized to visit over 300 times both the eisenhower executive building the white house campus and the white house itself. we have no idea what exactly he was doing there just for some context keep in mind the last four years of

. >> why would he let doug shulman, republican appointee, stay in there so long if he's going to manipulatebush's guy run it. thank you, gentlemen. thank you, nick. governor rendell, as always. >>> we'll be right back after this. this day calls you. to fight chronic osteoarthritis pain. to fight chronic low back pain. to take action. to take the next step. today, you will know you did something for your pain. cymbalta can help. cymbalta is a pain reliever fda-approved to manage chronic musculoskeletal pain. one non-narcotic pill a day, every day, can help reduce this pain. tell your doctor right away if your mood worsens, you have unusual changes in mood or behavior or thoughts of suicide. anti-depressants can increase these in children, teens, and young adults. cymbalta is not for children under 18. people taking maois, linezolid or thioridazine or with uncontrolled glaucoma should not take cymbalta. taking it with nsaid pain relievers, aspirin, or blood thinners may increase bleeding risk. severe liver problems, some fatal, were reported. signs include abdominal pain and yellowing skin or

these individuals that you personally did not interview, josh grant, steven miller, doug shulman, lois lerner, can you tell me who is interviewing -- first of all, is somewhat independent? >> the inspector general, the justice department putting together a witnesses or have put together which is listed i'm assuming it's evolving based on the fact that they're gathering and the professional investigators and both the inspectoinspector general and te justice department are conducting those entities. at the appropriate time they will share those results with me and i assume you in order to make sure we have a collective understanding of the facts spent all right. thank you. time is expired. thank you, mr. werfel, for your test what is going to end with that this hearing is now adjourned. [inaudible conversations] pessimistic. don't think you take away burned out athens and two-thirds of these to occupy the greeks would have fought or without bellisari the emperor would emperor would not have recovered much of the western part of byzantine roman empire. i don't think there was a union gene

. >> reporter: scott, the advantage for the administration now that he's on stage and not doug shulmaner, the former heads of the irs, is that he comes in with an absolutely clean slate and can talk about all the things he's doing to try to change the agency. in fact, when he told the committee that he didn't think more money was an answer to the irs's problems, hall rogers of kentucky, republican chairman of the appropriations committee said, i'm beginning to like you. so we'll see whether or not he can continue danny werfel can continue that and tamp down some of the furor over the irs in the coming days. >> john, thanks so much. >> thank john harwood in washington following that story for us. >>> auto sales are firing are all cylinders. find out who's leading the pack next. plus -- >> i think e lon musk is absolutely one of the best ceos in the business. >> is chrysler's former vice chairman right about elon musk? >>> later, wait till you hear what the ladies who lunch crowd is doing before, during and after lunch over in the uk. many worry it's happening here. it's monday, a brand

we told you yesterday, the former irs chief doug shulman's wife was an active leftest and here is proofeeted during the campaign urging people to tell their 99% story. and all right, now, take a look at the latest poll from bloomberg. 44% of people say that president obama is not telling the truth when it comes to the irs scandal. and tomorrow, another house oversight committee meeting on the lavish spending at the irs. we're watching apple today, the government says that older iphones and ipads infringe on a samsung patent. it has little impact on the stock. you'll see it happening shortly. and we're looking at a lower stock market open overall today. the latest report on jobs not promising, only 135,000 new private sector jobs added in may, that's pretty disappointing and news on general motors for you, we taxpayers selling more gm stock, i'll have an opening quote on it for you in just a moment. they're going to ring that bell any moment now, five minutes away, four of that, and you will see the action. we went out and asked people a simple question: how old is the oldest person you'

not defending them against the claims of people like lois lerner and like former commissioner doug shulmanteven miller that there were rogue agents in cincinnati. >> megyn: they know they weren't rogue and they were doing what they were told to do. and you reference the house oversight committee, one woman came out and said, i was essentially a front person. i had no autonomy to act on applications without carter hull's influence or input. she puts it squarely on him. the folks are being thrown under the bus don't appear to be that comfortable? >> and he went on to say she looked for a job in 2010 because she was so uncomfortable what she was being told to do from people in washington. the other thing that is important is to take a step back, carter hull is not a rogue agents. he was worn of the few lawyers that was charged with providing guidance and as national review has reported, these lawyers in washington were rubber-stamping the questionnaires that were sent to tea party groups and writing some of the questions. that is where the backlog you hear about came from. there was all these

irs scandal and ordering it, people are paying new attention to the wife of the irs commissioner doug shulman who was in power. and what this man's wife was and doing for a left wing political group at the same time her husbands employees were going after conservative groups. that's after the break. >> chilling crime scene photos and oscar pistorias faces in the murder of his girlfriend. >> three schools recently took to doing iris scans of young students without notifying their parents and how would you feel if no one bothered to mention it to you? we have that live. what do women want? this is kate. she likes a man with a little hair on his chest. but definitely not on his back. whatever style she likes, make sure it looks perfect. trim, shave and edge with the proglide styler. gillette. the best a man can get. >> i personally don't remember. >> the ig. >> i don't remember speaking with miss lerner. not that i remember. >> you never had a discussion? >> i don't remember. >> no discussion about 501 c4? >> i don't remember. >> that was douglas shul man unable to answer questions about the irs

what was doug shulman doing at the white house 167 times?> what cummings is doing is taking one answer from one individual and trying to declare this entire thing over. if you have seen these hearings, there were so many questions that went unanswered, that went partially answered, big questions like doug schulman's trips to the white house. there are so many unanswered questions i think this will end up looking like a pathetic attempt to deflect political concerns than answering substantive questions. martha: what is it like blowing the whistle against the most powerful intelligence agency on the planet. we'll talk to a man who says it's like going back to orhe will in 1984. bill: george zimmerman's fate hinge on one question. self-defense or murder. aw this is tragic man, investors just like you could lose tens of thousands of dollars on their 401(k) to hidden fees. thankfully e-trade has low cost investments and no hidden fees. but, you know, if you're still bent on blowing this fat stack of cash, there's a couple of ways you could do it.

we already knew that doug shulman visited white house former commissioner of the irs.h hull ingraham overseeing obama care has racked up more than 150 visits herself. what exactly were they doing there? here now is president of the franklin center for government and public integrity jason stirrack. thank you for being with us. >> my pleasure. thank you so much. >> farfetched to think that something possibly could have been going on with this mrs. ingraham as far as targeting people speaking out against obama care. >> i don't think it is farfetched whether you have day after day of another government agency targeting, spying on american citizens, you have to have that question raised. when you have a head of the implementation of obama care as well as the head of the tax exempt part of the irs, in over 160 meetings at the irs, which is almost three times as many as the attorney general of the united states met with at the white house, you have to have those questions. >> wild. >> incredibly wild. >> as compared to in the previous administration last few years of the bus

. >> doug shulman that was running the irs during the time the president's enemies were feeling their necks, he visited the white house 157 times in the first term compared to 43 times for the secretary of state, hillary clinton. the president has not been pressed on this question so far by reporters. why? >> you know, i'm not really sure. i think there's been some discrepancy in terms of how many times douglas shulman visited the white house. what's so confusing about all of this, when he was asked about it at the hearing on the irs, he didn't give a straight answer. he said it was because of the easter egg roll and listed other things. it doesn't really make sense when he was asked why he didn't say i didn't visit that many times or it was because of these things. what we know is neither douglas shulman or the president or the administration has been forth coming on the issue with the irs. regardless of how many times shulman visited the white house, i mean, they haven't been forthcoming and haven't given the public answers that they want to know. we haven't seen a lot with reporter

first we learned irs commissioner doug shulman was cleared to visit the white house 157 times duringonce a week. now we're learning jonathan davis, who was shulman's top political adviser and chief of staff, was also working closely with the obama administration, visiting the white house or next door as many as 310 times. monica crowley is a fox news contributor, also author of "what the bleep just happened." so what's the explanation here? i mean, are they just being diligent in checking in with the white house about everything the irs wants to do? >> i'm sure diligence is really the answer to what was going on here. this plot thickens, but it was already pretty thick to begin with. we had the irs commissioner during the period of time when conservatives were being targeted by the irs visiting the white house 118 times, a grand total of at least 157 times. now we learn that his top political aide was at the white house from the fall of '09 through february of this year a whopping 310 times. remember, jon, that the irs is supposed to be an independent agency. it is supposed to be non

why was doug shulman there 157 times.ave to waste your time on television talking about things that don't matter and are irrelevant when issues like that are staring you in the face. >> doug raises the question about stephanie cutter she is a main political operative for barack obama. at the time of the i.r.s. meetings that she blurted out she was sitting in on her main job was making sure that the incumbent president got reelected. what we are seeing now is that all of this i.r.s. harassment and intimidation had a material effect on not one but two election cycles, 2010 and 2012. what was she doing in these meetings? these are the kind of questions that martin beshear and others should be asking. when they can't deal in the reality and they don't want to deal with facts, martha they go to the refuge of a skoupbd tkr sco u.n. dral which is race. bill: eric holder is on the hill. a hearing beginnings in matter of moments. we'll watch that. this suv p*eups a victim under a running vehicle. why police say it happened in the

doug shulman attend the conference? >> yes. did lois lerner attend the conference? >> no. >> did sarah hall ingram attend? >> i do not have the information. i do not believe so. -- o any other >> there is no evidence anywhere in the the government was at the exhibit hall. >> you guys, your poor indicates -- did youoney spent look at any other conferences in detail other than the anaheim conference? >> no. >> there are two under 24 we do not know much about. >> -- >> 14 of those were solely for the tax exempt division. the division a targeted americans for three years for political believes. you not look at those at all? >> no. those were $2 million and told him -- in total. >> washington times indicates it was one of the most expensive. is that accurate? >> i do not know. >> do you know of the 14 conferences of the tax exempt division was a part of read do you know if doug shulman attend any of those? >> i do not. >> to steve miller? >> no information. >> lois lerman? >> no information. >> is it fair to say that the ohs would run in -- is it fair to say that they wo