who was giving instruction to evan corcoran and evan corcoran gave the instruction to christina or was it someone? they've got to have clarity before they decide whether or not to pull the trigger and pursue an indictment. >> do you think this represents jack smith as it concerns mar-a-lago? because of this world around mar-a-lago and pence and their own retention of classified documents some thought smith might be backing off. do you think that's at all a consideration anymore? >> no, i never thought that was aev consideration. nor would i have thought it was appropriate. ifho i there's merit to, you kn the special counsel's case and any criminal liability for anybody with respect to president biden that should pursue its own track and the same thing goes for former president mike pence. donald trump has his own problems, his own criminal exposure, tied to his actions d the actions of his lawyers over the last two years at mar-a-lago. he's not backing off. doesn't mean he's going to pursue an indictment, doesn't mean he's going to win a trial, but clearly they're not taking a back ste

his name is evan corcoran. special counsel investigating donald trump's handling of classified documents is seeking to compel a lawyer for the former president to testify before the grand jury. according to a source familiar with the matter. prosecutors alleged in a sealed filing that they have evidence that some of trump's conversations with the attorney were in furtherance of a crime. the special counsel is reportedly asking a judge to invoke the crime fraud exception. and force an attorney to testify under oath about conversations between him and his client which in this case, would be evan corcoran and one donald trump. "the new york times" which was first to report the news at the special counsel is zeroing in on this quote, whether trump or his associates obstructed justice in failing to comply with demands to return a trove of government material he took with him from the white house upon leaving office, including hundreds of documents with classified markings. one potentially very important piece of evi

again so, they have this motion to compel further testimony from evan corcoran. and the reason that it matters is they're trying to overcome that shield of attorney client privilege, which he did you'd, we are told, in the last time we met with a ground jury. they're tried overcome. that so, what they are alleging, prosecutors in writing to this judge, is that they believe that the former president has used his attorney, evan corcoran, in further it's of a crime or fraud. that is this crime fraud exception that would allow them to overcome the attorney-client privilege. and basically, force him to answer questions that typically he would not have to. but we should note, we don't actually know how this is going to end up. it's going to go to a judge. they estimate, they make a decision based on the merits here. >> elliott, let me. ask you so, a judge has to decide whether a crime was actually committed? >> exactly, anderson. so, prosecutors here bear the burden of going to a judge. and they're trying to pierce or get through the attorney-client privilege. one of t

that statement was written by evan corcoran and that statement proved to be false. six weeks later, the fbi executed a search warrant at the same property where the trump lawyers swore in writing there were no more documents in and the fbi found more than 100 additional classified documents and several hundred additional government documents that were illegally in donald trump's possession. the search warrant used by the fbi that day said there was, quote, probable cause to believe that evidence of obstruction of justice would be found. the new york times reports tonight it was also not immediately clear whether the justice department suspects misconduct by mr. corcoran and mr. trump, by mr. trump and others, or by mr. trump alone. so, the big news of the night is that jack smith is telling a federal judge that he so strongly suspects that donald trump's lawyer was somehow involved in criminal conduct that that layer should be compelled to testify under oath in a grand jury without the protection of attorney client privilege. another witness, jack smith, has subpoen

evan corcoran has been kind of one of the top attorneys on this for months now. he was there, he was one who drafted that letter that they gave to the justice department back in june, i believe, that wasn't signed by him but helped write it saying they conducted a diligent search of mar-a-lago and there were no more classified documents where they looked. obviously that wasn't the case because the fbi found a lot more but he didn't put his actual name on that. one of the other attorneys put her name on that, so it remains to be seen but obviously that could be a possibility of why they want to speak to him but this is a really aggressive move. maybe one of the most aggressive we have seen from the special counsel jack smith overseeing this investigation. >> elie, what does it tell you that they are going down this route and do you agree with kaitlan, this is the most aggressive thing we've seen so far from them? >> absolutely. it is rare that prosecutors do this and shows they mean business and shows me, anderson, that these prosecutors are focused intensely on o

that attorney is evan corcoran.and this time they're trying to overcome that attorney-client privilege that protects what he and trump had talked about privately. in doing so they've written to the judge alleging that they believe trump used evan corcoran in furtherance of a crime or fraud. that is that fraud crime exception prosecutors are trying to make the argument to judge to overcome attorney-client privilege basically so they can get him back in there and have him answer questions. it's an aggressive move, probably one of the most aggressive we've seen so far from the special counsel overseeing this investigation, jack smith. we don't know they'll be successful, but this is really notable development coming from these prosecutors overseeing this investigation. >> elliot, what do you make of this? >> yeah, it's a big deal. picking up on katelyn's point the attorney-client privilege is one of the most sacred privileges that exist in american law. the comments you make to our attorney are treated with confidence

>> we don't know when evan corcoran first testified to the grand jury. we were led to believe it was relatively recently. you don't seek the crime fraud exception until somebody invokes pruf. it has to happen in these two stages. why wait until now, not clear, but why do it now is more clear. bairl howell who is the chief judge of the d.c. courts has overseen all the grand jury disputes, she is about to hand over that position to another judge. my guess is that federal prosecutors are eager to get before her, have her resolve as many of their disputes as possible because they know what they're getting with her. she's fast. she's knowledgeable, and most importantly she's given them a lot of what they've wanted. >> good to see you. >>> coming up, everybody, residents of eastern ohio are demanding answers about whether their air and water is safe after the derailment of that train carrying toxic chemicals weeks ago. epa administrate michael regan joins me to talk about that. >>> moments ago an incredible scene inside the courtroom where the gunman at the sh

to lie or whether trump lied to evan corcoran. that seems to be the essence of all this. is that right? >> yeah that's part of it and it's also did trump talk to fatten corcoran order to go through one of the other trump world lawyers? who's mentioned in the new york times article and it is a player who's been around trump world and seems to be overseeing different lawyers. who was giving the instruction to heaven corcoran? and did evan corcoran give instruction to christina bobb when she signed that statement back in june? who is overseeing it and what information did they know? does it all come back to donald trump in the end? or was someone else, was it boris epstein who went rogue and was trying to convey false information? that's what the doj has to nail down. they have to have clarity before they decide to pull the trigger and proceed in indictment. >> do you think this represents a newly aggressive stance on the part of special counsel jack smith when it concerns mar-a-lago. because of this moral around trump, some folks th

which would let them sidestep protections afforded to evan corcoran now attorney-client privilege.nce some of the former president's conversations with an attorney were in firth furthererance of a crime and is believed to have asserted attorney-client privilege on behalf of trump in refusing to answer certain questions related to his representation in the documents investigation. nbc news has reached out to corcoran and a trump spokesperson for comment, nothing back yet. meanwhile former vice president mike pence plans to challenge a subpoena from the special counsels investigating former president trump's role in the january 6th capitol attack. a source tells nbc news that pence's legal team will argue that the former vice president was acting in his role as president of the senate during the joint session of congress that day and that the speech or debate clause that protects legislators should apply to him as well. it's not clear how the clause would prevent pence from testifying about other conversations at or around the white house before the capitol attack. politico, which wa

but here you see they want to bring back evan corcoran and ask about the events leading up to the searchto convince a court to allow them to use one of these few exceptions to attorney/client privilege saying we believe corcoran or his legal advice were used in furtherance of a crime. not a high bar. it's likely they will be successful. look, it's never a good day when one of your lawyers goes before a grand jury and now we're up to three trump attorneys going before the same grand jury. >> part of the argument of the prosecutors is that the lawyers helped trump or someone in his orbit, keep saying we gave you all the documents and the justice department found out through witnesses there's more, there's more, there's more. one of the lead prosecutors for bob muller looks at this and says this. these are the final steps in this investigation. paul manafort was indicted just a few weeks after chief judge howell in d.c. ruled mueller could use in crime fraud exception. shouldn't be a long day once the judge rules on this one. do you agree with that? >> i do and it's a big deal. you want to

that attorney is evan corcoran he's already testified before the grand jury for four hours or so i'm they actually want him to come back. and this time they are trying to overcome that attorney-client privilege that protects what he and trump talked about privately. and in doing so, they have written to the judge alleging that they believe trump used evan corcoran in furtherance of a crime or fraud >> seth: and that's a big deal prosecutors are basically saying that attorney-client privilege shouldn't apply because the attorney, in this case, may have helped trump commit a crime. but i mean, come on. that's ridiculous. when has one of trump's lawyers ever helped him do anything suspicious oh, right. i forgot [ light laughter ] rudy, the guy that looks like he just walked into donald trump's bedroom and was blinded by the blue phone light whoa [ laughter ] "boss, we need to cover that how about we steal the mona lisa from the louvre? [ laughter ] "oh, it looks like she's smiling at you, boss." so what, you might say so he had some classified documents in empty folders republicans say

what jack smith wants to know is was there a conversation between evan corcoran and former president donald trump. that is at the heart of the investigation when you're looking at trump's handling of classified documents might have been different from other people who have had classified documents go back to their private residences. we know that what jack smith has been looking into is whether or not there was obstruction, whether or not there was espionage, and whether or not there was actually something that could be charged here criminally, not just that it was a violation of the presidential records act, and so what this shows us is, a, jack smith is aggressive. he's using this to show he wants the judge to say that they cannot keep that communication about signing that document protected by attorney/client privilege, that's an aggressive strategy, it also shows that he is taking this investigation to a serious level where it could turn into criminal charges from this grand jury, and that he would try to seek an indictment based on that from the grand jury. so it really ups the

so the justice department wants to ask more questions of this lawyer, evan corcoran.eclined to answer some things saying it's attorney/client privilege. this is the next step in that, trying to get more answers. this is the thing that the justice department doesn't do lightly, they don't wush for attorney answers in this way very often, they have to take it up the chain at the justice department and there is going to be a court is that heavily considers whether or not he's going to have to answer. >> notable, there's something still going on there. katelyn polantz, thanks so much. >>> today former president trump national security adviser john bolton is expected to be briefed by biden white house officials on that suspected chinese spy balloon as well as other aerial objects shot down by the u.s. in just the last week. while the debris from those three downed objects has yet to be recovered, national security council spokesman john kirby says so far there is no evidence those smaller objects are tied to china's spy program. so what's going on here? joining me now to t

nbc news has learned that jack smith is asking a judge to compel former trump lawyer ere evan corcorane questions before a grand jury. he's invoking what's called the crime fraud exception. that allows prosecutors to get around attorney/client privilege when they believe legal advice has been used to further a crime. i'm joined now by nbc ease julia ainsley and by former deputy assistant attorney harry litman, professor of constitutional law at ucla. so julia, talk to us about what we're learning in this sealed filing and what you're hearing from our sources. >> well, chris, it's aggressive but it's not a surprising tactic are from jack smith, someone who has tried war criminals in the hague. we now know from sources and my colleague ken dilanian that zack smith is going to try to compel the testimony of evan corcoran. that was trump's lawyer right around the time that he believes he told a person on trump's legal team to go ahead and sign documents saying they had handed over all of those classified documents to the national archives. as we later learned after that fbi search of mar-a

but it looks like what he's zeroing in on is the fact that it was in june that evan corcoran drafted, according to people, the statement saying, you have all the documents, we've turned them all over, and then in august, of course, a lot more turn over. >> it strikes me that the idea of piercing the attorney-client privilege, trying to get beyond it, is in essence saying to corcoran, look, it's going to be you or your -- >> right. >> your client is blaming you. so tell us, who is going to jail? are you going to jail or your client? >> you can tell these smart trump lawyers from the dumb ones. the smart ones demand to be paid up front. there's a couple of them who have instead of the others. >> if you're client tells you i have turned over everything and you sign this and you write a document saying this, who is it -- who is liable there? given trump's history, right, wouldn't you think that any lawyer is not just going to take the former president's word for this. they're going to want to see and go through the evidence themselves. it seems a little unbelievable to me that corcoran wo

one source says prosecutors alleged in writing that trump used attorney evan corcoran in furtherance of a crime or fraud. last month, corcoran appeared before the grand jury for about four hours. a source says he declined to answer some question, citing attorney-client privilege. >>> the white house is sharing its leading theory about the three airborne objects shot down over u.s. and canadian airspace over the last several days. given the limited information they have, officials believe they are balloons serving a commercial or otherwise benign purpose. cnn's oren liebermann has more now from the pentagon. >> after days of uncertainty about the flying objects in north american airspace, the white house put forward its leading theory, balloons for benign purposes. following a classified briefing on capitol hill, senators from both parties feel at ease, but blasted the biden administration for not being transparent about the objects. >> the briefing was helpful today. i'm not unnerved by anything. i'm confident this wasn't an take on the country. i think it probably served the country

sources tell cnn that they're asking a court to force more testimony from his attorney, evan corcorannning a crime or a fraud, which could undermine the normal attorney/client privilege. let's bring in retired ambassador norm eisen, a cnn legal analyst, former white house ethics czar and was the white house special counsel during trump's first impeachment trial. always good to see you, mr. eisen. how big of an escalation is this? how significant is this request? >> kasie, it's a big escalation and a signal that trump's legal peril on holding those classified documents, even after the government asked for them back again and again is deepening. you know, the attorney/client privilege, myself as an attorney, is sacred. it's very rarely challenged in court or by prosecutors. but when an attorney, and this is the allegation the government is making about mr. corcoran, when an attorney is used by a client to facilitate or further a crime or a fraud, the privilege is blanked out. and that's what we are facing here. i think the government has a pretty good case that the privilege should be w

a source tells cnn that trump attorney evan corcoran testified for four hours last month before a federal grand jury in washington. the panel is looking into trump's handling of national security records at mar-a-lago. meanwhile, trump's legal team has turned over more classified materials and laptops to federal prosecutors and the fbi is expected to search the washington office of trump's former vice president mike pence in the coming days. cnn's jessica schneider has more on a classified document found at pence's house and the latest on the trump case. >> reporter: two new developments on the classified documents front. first, we've learned the former president's legal team has actually turned over more classified documents to federal prosecutors in recent months, and it really suggests that these efforts to get classified material back from the former president it still continues, all as the special counsel investigation, which is a criminal investigation, is ongoing. so we learned that this turnover of material happened in december and january. it included not only classified document

one source says prosecutors alleged in writing that trump used attorney evan corcoran in furtherancecorcoran appeared before the grand jury for about four hours. a source says he declined to answer some questions, citing attorney client privilege. still to come, an extremely difficult situation on the front lines in eastern ukraine. an update on the fierce fighting their, just ahead. and only chew withth triple protection. oh, fleas and tickcks ♪ intestinal worms... wow heartworm disease, no problem with simarica trio. this drug class has been associated with neurologic adverse reactions including seizures. use with caution in dogs with a history of these disorders. for winning protection. go with simparica trio. i'm lindsey vonn, and ever since i retired from skiing, i've had trouble falling asleep and staying asleep— you know, insomnia. before i found quviviq, an fda-approved insomnia medication for adults, you would not believe the things i used to think about when i couldn't sleep. hey, linds. i need you to sign this business contract. all 114 pages. lindsey! lindsey! hey, lindse

they are asking a court to force his attorney evan corcoran to give additional testimony. he already testified for four hours. prosecutors are trying to overcome the shield of attorney/client privilege alleging trump used corcoran in the furtherance of a crime or fraud. a spokesman for the former president calls the move a witch hunt. >>> alex murdaugh's double murder trial resumes this morning with his attorneys now thinking about putting him on the stand in his own defense. the court heard from his sister-in-law yesterday about some of the strange comments alex made to her after the murders. randi kaye has more. >> she loved her family, she loved her boys. >> reporter: maggie tmurdaugh's sister on the witness stand just feet away from the man accused of taking their lives. marian proctor shared that maggie told her alex had specifically requested that she and paul go to the family's hunting property that night. >> she said alex wanted her to do that night? >> yes. >> and what was your understanding of maggie's intent for what they were going to do? >> i was under the imp

the more you introduce the other characters, christina bob or evan corcoran, made representations to justice department, he could say i didn't know what they were saying. i was handed off. there was reporting that he met with jay brat, who came down from the justice department to look around at mar-a-lago in june of last year. and so, that could be helpful. but i imagine what they're trying to do is to find out to what extent could they attribute these false statements and failure to return the documents in the face of a subpoena, to donald trump himself as opposed to aides who were dealing with him at an arm's length. >> pete, i want to you ask a question about the fbi's equities in this. what is the -- it seems that the stakes for anyone in the national security apparatus of the united states of america couldn't be higher than making sure that classified documents are returnable. i mean, there is reporting, we don't know what is still there. what he did with it. but the things that we know, that he took it and he was involved in the packing of it and kept it and told lawyers to lie

for example, evan corcoran drafting a statement saying all classified statement was returned and thate to be true. there was more found when they did go to mar-a-lago. also going after key witness in the other january 6th investigation, mike pence now speaking out about that subpoena. >> i'm going to fight the biden doj subpoena to appear before the grand jury because i think it's unprecedented and unconstitutional. my fight is on the separation of powers. my fight against the doj subpoena, simply is on defending the prerogatives that i had add a president of the senate to preside over the joint session of congress on january 6th. >> this is a big tell for mike pence. he is all over the place. talk about different types of privilege from two different types of government. the big question is the same one we put to peter navarro and it's one that has haunted certain people when they try to keep having it both ways and the feds are involved. if you want to talk about this stuff in public or make money selling oak soffit -- if you want to go around the country and tell everyone why you w

saying they have evidence trump may have xlilted a crime through his lawyer in an effort to compel evan corcoranobstruct federal investigators. >> they rifled through the first lady's closet drawers and everything else. >> reporter: sources say in corcoran's first grand jury appearance he invoked attorney/client privilege to some questions. investigators now want to ask him about all that led up to the fbi's search of mar-a-lago last august. >> and even did a deep and ugly search of the room of my 16-year-old son. [ boos ] leaving everything they touched in far different condition than it was when they started. can you believe it? the fbi and the justice department have become vicious monsters. >> reporter: investigators had subpoenaed any classified documents still in trump's possession after he turned over an initial batch of government records to the national archives. >> they should give me immediately back everything that they've taken from me because it's mine. it's mine. >> reporter: corcoran helped to draft a statement attesting that there were no more classified records at mar-a-lago be

a couple of them, we learned just this week, evan corcoran, one of trumps lawyers, who is being asked to provide additional testimony, despite the fact, obviously, that he's a lawyer, and he's trying to shield it under attorney-client privilege. there's also scott perry, the representative for pennsylvania. the justice department is trying to get access to his cell phone. there's a number of others going on behind the scenes. special counsel saying, look, because of the intense public interest in this, we need to keep the secret, which is kind of a bizarre argument to be making. >>> all right, evan, thank you very much, and i some of this is developing late in the night, let's just go straight to our panel. meadows obviously, right, had given some information to the committee, had not, obviously, you know, gone with full testimony. now here we are subpoenaed. there had been a debate recently, because meadows has been very quiet, as to whether he was cooperating. does this put that to bed? he wasn't, and now we're at this point. >> it sounds like there's a breakdown that he maybe was n

nbc has learned jack smith has asked a judge to compel trump lawyer evan corcoran to and questions before the grand jury in that case. we are also soon going to learn more about georgia prosecutor, fani willis's investigation into trump and election interference in georgia. sections of the grand jury report are set to be made public this thursday. so with that, let's get smarter with the help of our lead off panel tonight. daniella diaz, a congressional reporter for politico, sarah d. why or is here, national security and justice department for the l.a. times. and neal katyal, former acting solicitor general during the obama administration. daniela and sarah, i believe this is our first date on the 11th hour. so, welcome on this valentines night, but i turn to my old boyfriend, neal katyal first. neal katyal, what is mike pence doing? he cannot possibly make the argument of executive privilege. he wrote a book all about what happened on january 6th and then did immediate around. it what is he possibly arguing? >> first of all, stephanie ruhle, happy valentine's day to you. >> thank you. >

you have a lot of people who also have his lawyer, evan corcoran who's been subpoenaed. are people who can give firsthand evidence in both the mar-a-lago case and all the events that led up about january six and about january six. i think it shows that the pace is really progressing. they have very clear testimony that they could be asked about, and at least, pence has said that he will fight the subpoena and, trump has suggested that he will claim executive privilege, while pence will claim a legislative privilege, speech and debate clause. i think both will fail for sure, and former president trump did not intervene when his daughter and son-in-law testified before the january six committee, so he may not do it again. they may be able to testify without that being raised. >> jennifer, one of the things that has surprised me, maybe i am wrong, how much work jacks potential ready done. i am not sure he's done the work or relying on the work of the generous committee that has given himself a head start. i am surprised how relatively few attacks he has faced from trump and

the one we learned just a couple days ago about evan corcoran, his lawyer who was brought before theury. the special counsel is trying to get him to answer questions that have to do with his interactions with donald trump, his client, obviously. there's also another proceeding to try to get access to information from scott perry, representative scott perry's cell phone, another thing that's also under seal. all of these things are now playing out, erin, behind the scenes, under seal. the special counsel has actually argued that it is because of the public interest, the extensive public interest in these matters that some of this should be kept secret, which sort of takes transparency and turns it on its head. the justice department regulations do allow the special counsel to tell the public because of the extraordinary nature of this investigation and the fact that they're writing new law with every single one of these cases that they should be able to explain a lot of this to the public. but it looks like we're going to have to wait a lot longer for the judge who's overseeing the gr

evan corcoran and christina -- both of them have already testified before a grand jury earlier this year. the pair maybe beat more philly with bob, she's more public facing. for her attempts to defend trump's mishandling of classified documents on tv. >> i don't think there was actually anything there that's worthwhile. we'll see what they come up with. if they did it will be interesting, especially since they precluded me from watching what they did. but at this point i don't think they would even go to the extent of trying to plant information. i think they just make stuff up and come up with whatever they want. that's the way that they'll have to proceed in order to try to indict the president, because they don't have anything. there's just nothing there. >> let me just repeat that for you. they don't have anything. there's just nothing there. now christina bobb, you may remember, is a lawyer who unfortunately for her signed a 2022 statement claiming that all of trump's classified material had been turned over to the justice department. a statement, again, that she signed, ultimately

one of them involves evan corcoran, who talked about just in the last couple of days. he got a subpoena. he's a lawyer for the former president. and trump is trying to shield him. and efren corcoran is trying to resist providing information about what he talk to trump about, regarding these classified documents. and a number of of for litigations like this that we know is going on behind the scenes. the question for the justice department is why is this have to be secret? given the great importance of these fights. and one of the things they are telling the judge is that because of the great public interest, that is the reason why it must remain secret. >> okay. and also, we are hearing that the fbi searched the university of delaware for biden documents. what do we know about this? >> so many things happening. in a case of joe biden, we have learned of two additional searches that were done at the university of delaware. two different searches in two locations at the university of delaware. sources telling paula reid that the documents that were retrieved and taken ba

you also have people -- his lawyer, evan corcoran, who's been subpoenaed, these are the people closestm. these are the people who can give firsthand evidence if both the mar-a-lago case, and all the events that led up to january 6th, and the fall of january six. i think it shows that this case is really progressive. they have very clear testimony that they could be asked about, and at least the pence's said that he is going to fight the subpoena, who trump have suggested he'll play with executive privilege, while playing with the legislative privilege speech and debate clause. both will fail for sure. former president trump did not intervene when his daughter and son in law testified for the january six committee, so he may not do it again. they may be able to testify without that been raised. >> jennifer, one of the things that has surprised me, and maybe i'm, wrong is how much work jack smith has already done. i don't know if he's already done the work, or he's relying perhaps on the january six committee, which is giving him a head start. i am surprised at how relevant and few attac

evan corcoran. the doj has reportedly asked the judge to apply something called the crime fraud exception, which would compel coren to testify under oath without the protection of that privilege. the exception voids legal secrecy when a client has sought a lawyer's help in the commission of a crime. now corcoran is the attorney who back in january, if you recall, purportedly drafted a letter sent by another trump lawyer, christina bobb, in which she swore that all classified material in trump's possession had, in fact, been returned. but as we now all know, the court order search of mar-a-lago in august proved that to be a lie. this week, we also learned mike pence plans to fight a subpoena he received from smith regarding the doj investigation into trump's election subversion efforts. pence called the demand for's cooperation, quote, unprecedented and unconstitutional. in order to fight that subpoena, pence's legal team is expected to roll out an unusual legal strategy here, one that hinges on his

want to get a question and to you about mar-a-lago and trump's attorney and the probe, that being evan corcoranays that he is not protected by attorney client privilege in this case. a source familiar with the matters says, so that wants corcoran to testify before a grand jury. what is this tell you, charles, about doj and how vigorously they're still pursuing this despite president biden, the, now having a document issue of his own? of course, he cooperated willingly. >> well, i think it's important to understand those things are apples and oranges. for the raise money just mentioned, and a number of different other ones, including the volume in the scope, as well as the national archives and the fbi attempting -- before the execution of a search warrant at mar-a-lago, attempting to cooperate with former president and donald trump. to get those documents. these are very different. that being said, i think because of the fact we are such an intentional space when you're talking how donald trump acted with respect to trying to give back the documents or avoid getting back to documents, what he i