. >> leading off our discussion tonight, glenn kirschner. she's a former federal prosecutor and msnbc legal analyst. . he's also host of the -- podcast -- also with us his harry litman -- former assistant deputy attorney general. he is a senior legal affairs columnist for the los angeles times. and harry, what do you make by way of what we are getting in terms of specificity on the target letter, in these three possible areas of a possible indictment of donald trump by the january 6th grand jury that jack smith has empaneled? >> so, first, i am ready to call it an indictment, a -- indictment. target letters with, as night follows day, or followed by indictments. secondly, in terms of the charges two of them are quite well vetted end and what we expected. so, the defrauding of the united states almost certainly refers to the false electors scheme and the attempt, as you were just mentioning in michigan, to impose an alternate -- that his to say -- a phony baloney set of false electors. and the obstruction almost certainly refers to trying to

also with us glenn kirschner, former federal prosecutor, host of the justice matters podcast. they are both msnbc legal analysts. andrew weissmann, your reading of jack smith's response on scheduling? >> well, we anticipated that he was going to file a response because so far he has really run this crack team of making sure that his position is known to the court and the court has the benefit of his thinking. i thought it was a very strong brief. the borderline frivolous line is in reference to something that is important. the former president keeps talking about the presidential records act and he says that's what governs his case and that's what the government took direct aim at instead it is entirely irrelevant to this criminal case. both to the retention of classified national defense information, part of the case, and to the obstruction case. and so i thought it was really good that they just took aim at that. what they basically said was frivolous. i think they were a bit more polite and said borderline frivolous. and i think the other thing worth noting is it is really

blueprint and have a trial as early as december. >> garrett haake, katie benner, joyce vance, glenn kirschnerwith us. glenn, you have been very skeptical of judge cannon. how are you feeling now? she didn't just follow swallow the trump line and follow it? >> she didn't, steph, but look, this is the second test of judge cannon's ability to sit and partially, presiding over a trial, you know, involving the very president what wanted her to the federal bench. she undeniably failed her first test when she abused her discretion to donald trump's extreme advantage and the 11th circuit court of appeals said that she abused her discretion. today was the second test. which he set a timely trial date? well, i can't say she failed that test yet because she is still taking it. she had to ask the teacher for more time. now she said that she will in the near future set a trial date. but, you know, the prosecutors have asked for a trial date five months out from now, december. that sounds like a enough time for the defense to weed itself in and prepare for trial. we're gonna have to wait and see whether ju

daniels, white house correspondent, and coauthor, and for politico, and former federal prosecutor glenn kirschner. all right, glenn, the department of justice did not release everything in this application search warrant. we did learn something, and you've seen this, you've had time with it, what is the key takeaway for you? >> yeah, boy, we sure would like to see everything because it is still replete with those big, black bar redactions, and we'd all like to know the entirety of the evidence that the fbi had when it was applying for that search warrant at mar-a-lago. some of what we've learned, symone, were things like donald trump's codefendant, his coconspirator, apparently moved 64 boxes out of the storage room at mar-a-lago, and he only returned 30 boxes, and that was right before the department of justice came calling, wanting those documents back. we now know because we can fast forward to the august search warrant that donald trump continued to illegally conceal and retain them after, you know, this move the boxes game by walt nauta. and math may not be my strong suit, but if he moved 64

attorney glenn kirschner is back, "new york times" editorial reporter mara gay is here.d this body of reporting which is all completely accurate, completely newsworthy. but i feel like the volume business has always served trump. so much scandal, we won't pay attention to all of it. so much criminality, we'll become numb to any of it. what do you make of this excellent body of reporting? >> there's a lot to chew on, isn't there? when you put up the calendar, we all as reporters are kind of dumb struck by how much criminal exposure donald trump has had, but for all of them to collide as they have, basically as the company and political parties get ready to elect the next president, this is not ideal. it is not the ideal time that prosecutors want to be bringing cases of criminality. they never knew they would be charging a former president. that's never happened before. now we can say, you know, more than one and done. maybe we'll be four and done. we'll see. i think one of the problems for prosecutors, federal prosecutors in particular is that donald trump has excellentl

attorney for the district of columbia, now an nbc news and msnbc legal analyst, glenn kirschner. glenn, good morning. thank you for joining us this morning. let's start there with that possible defense trump is using that he believed in good faith that he had won the election even though, of course, all facts are to the contrary. what does that mean for the burden of proof potentially for the justice department? >> jonathan, good morning. it's not a defense to say, for example, i decided to launch an attack on the capitol, on the democratic process, on the certification of presidential election because i thought i won. and importantly, if we want to get down into the weeds of how criminal law and criminal procedure works, the only way donald trump would even get to present a defense that included evidence like i truly believe i won the election is if he testified. his attorneys can't call other witness tuesday the stand to testify about donald trump's state of mind. anything they would say would be inadmissible evidence, and it would be hearsay. so donald trump would have to take

so it's the reverse of that show, and glenn kirschner, thank you. i appreciate both of you on the show. >> up next on "the reidout," when students become casualties of the war on woke, teachers give florida's new curriculum teaching kids about the benefits of being a slave a big fat f, which it deserves. "the reidout" continues after this. ♪ ♪ ♪♪ voltaren. the joy of movement. ♪♪ i was told my small business wouldn't qualify for an erc tax refund. you should get a second opinion from innovation refunds at no upfront cost. sometimes you need a second opinion. [coughs] good to go. yeah, i think i'll get a second opinion. all these walls gotta go! ah ah ah! i'd love a second opinion. no. i'm going to get a second opinion. with innovation refunds, there's no upfront cost to find out. so why not check like i did for my small business? take the first step to see if your small business qualifies for the erc. hi, my name's steve. i lost 138 pounds on goloe if your small business and i kept it off. golo's changed my life in so many ways. before, i was over 3

glenn kirschner, thank you both for your analysis tonight. much appreciated. >> still to come.ate power for a prime minister benjamin netanyahu. >> peter beinhardrt just returned from the country heat joined us in a moment. first, richard louis is here leaving with the headlines. good evening. one dead another 20 injured. historic buildings were damaged including an early 19th century cathedral. presents lewinsky vowed retaliation, this comes just days after president putin canceled a crucial deal with ukraine. wildfires raging in greece for the six-day forcing 19,000 people to evacuate from the island of boroughs. it was the largest evacuation from wildfires in that country. more fires breaking out today. temperatures hit 110 degrees. in the u.s., also sweltering under more record temperatures this weekend. salt lake city reached an all-time high of 106. phoenix hitting 118. the las vegas weather service actually baked cookies in a hot car that he did after 210 degrees. more of the mehdi hasan show right after this. right after this ♪♪ voltaren. the joy of movement. ♪♪ >> woma

just to go on to glenn kirschner for a moment. how much more difficult is this superseding indictment make the case for the prosecutors or for trump? for trump because there's a lot more evidence. for the prosecutors because it could delay the trial day which was set for may which was already bumping into the calendar. what's your take on how this all balances out? >> yeah, there's a little something for everybody here. ordinarily when co defendants, co conspirators are added to a case by a superseding indictment, it tells us a couple of things. one, it tells us those co conspirators who are now indicted defendants like carlos apparently opted not to cooperate with prosecutors to avoid an indictment, right. he could have agreed to take responsibility for his own crimes that are being alleged against him. he could have agreed to plead guilty perhaps to a reduced charge and cooperate with prosecutors against the other charged defendants. walt nauta and trump. he opted not to do it. often, when we approach people who are targets of a

. >> and glenn kirschner, we all know that the georgia phone call, the famous georgia phone call, is part of this investigation because drew secretary of state brad raffensperger testifying to jack smith's grand jury about this. but now we are learning that michigan secretary of state was also questioned by jack smith's investigator. she's gonna join us, actually, in an exit segment. so this investigation is a multi state investigation that could involve an awful lot more than just what we know donald trump did in washington. >> you know, lawrence, this is an embarrassment of prosecutorial riches. you've got not only the fake electors scheme, and i don't think there's anybody who believes that in the seven battleground states all of these electors just sort of coincidentally and simultaneously came up with this scheme. this has always had the feel of a top down washington driven trump and company operation. but you have that, and let's not forget the baseless and nefarious lawsuits that were filed by rudy giuliani, sydney powell, and others. you've got the insurrection itself. and no

attorney for the district t of columbia, glenn kirschner. he is an nbc news and msnbc legal analyst. we're very pleased he's with us this morning. the entire media world was focused on theedia wor courthou in washington believing those january 6th charges were coming. the grand jury did meet id meet yesterday, but no charges at least not yet. they could come at any time.o now many believe next week. talk to us ability these -- these new ones out of florida. how worried should donald trumpd be? >> he should be worried for aon couple of reasons, jonathan. you know, first of all, he has a new codefendant, a new coconspirator, not just walt nauta but mr. de oliveira as well. anytime anytime you add another codefendant to the mix, there is obviously another opportunity for somebody ofsly an consequen flip against donald trump. it's reallyal hard to see how bh of these codefendants will stay strong and may be willing to gog down with donald trump, go to prison perhaps for decades rather than saving themselves, , striking a deal with prosecutors to

covering the trump campaign, also with us former federal prosecutor and msnbc legal analyst, glenn kirschner. >> we're learning about new testimony tomorrow before the garage? >> yeah, that's right, chris. among the three statutes, the witness tampering statute is also -- and glenn will correct me if i'm wrong, the same statute that covers obstruction of an official proceeding and that's the one we've been focusing on for a long time and what many legal experts believed was part of the theory of this case along with the conspiracy to defraud the united states. the general theory is that donald trump and people around him knew he had lost the election, but they nonetheless perpetrated a fraud in a number of ways including through fund-raising, through the slates of fake electors, through using the letters of government in an effort to impede the lawful transfer of power. that's what it looks like. in terms of the third one, deprivation of rights under color of law. there's new information, for example, that special counsel has subpoenaed information about video of what was happening in fulton

michael steele is former rnc chairman and glenn kirschner, an msnbc analyst.ant to go to nikki haley's remarks. she's trying that pragmatic electability argument to trump voters say, yes, i support him, too, but he can't win. is there any evidence that's the messaging that's going to reach anybody? >> you know better than me trying to parse this bubble gum speak coming out of the mouths of these people. it's just banal attempts to placate. it's frustrating. do you want to be president? you have to go through the guy sitting at 52% among the republican base. otherwise, get out of the race. stop wasting our time. you're not going to take him on, then why are you in the game? are you waiting for the justice system which you demonize and belittle and berate to do the thing you won't do? which do you want? you can't have it both ways. the justice system is not going to deliver donald trump on your political platter. it's just not going to work that way. the reality of it is you either want the job or you don't. if you do, that means you're going to have to sound a

glenn kirschner comes back to help us out more.ow much more he values enriching himself, including his wife, over the angst of the american people and their families. the latest grifts is our next story. don't go anywhere. story. don't go anywhere. cold water, on those stains? ♪♪ cold water can't clean tough stains? i'd say that myth is busted. this is american turn infrastructure.ide. megawatts of power, rails and open road, and essential services of every kind. all running on countless invisible networks, making it a prime target for cyberattacks. but the same ai-powered security that protects all of google also defends the systems running america's infrastructure. for these services. for the 336 million of us living here. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ wherever you go. wherever you stay. all you need is one key. earn and use rewards across expedia, hotels.com, and vrbo. with new creations starring black label® thick cut cherrywood bacon. ready to satisfy your bacon obsession? at denny's... it's diner time. and now, rewards members get 2 free strips

glenn kirschner, glenn, you are my law man. let's get this thing started with.o you expect to see action in smiths election interference case this week. >> i would think so, stephanie because of once we saw jack smith deliver a target letter to donald trump, that is one of the last steps prosecutors will take before walking into the grand jury and asking them to vote on proposed charges in an indictment. so, i suspect, even though we have been hearing that there may be some more witnesses who will be presented to the d. c. grand jury investigating the january 6th offenses in the coming weeks, i don't suspect that will stop jack smith from issuing an indictment in the coming days. >> all right, glenn, how did you read this one? former trump doj official, richard donahue, was interviewed by the special counsel's office, but he didn't testify to the grand jury. what does that mean? >> well, it means, first of all, he is doing a pre grand jury interview. i can almost guarantee you, steph, that even though richard donahue maybe a friendly witness, not a hostile witne

. >> glenn kirschner, as, always thank you very much for coming to the, show and sharing your expertiseder at the center of a viral racist incident in central park. he is here, and joins me live in studio to discuss his new book on -- and much more. do not go anywhere. go anywhere it kills 99% plaque bacteria. and forms an antibacterial shield. try parodontax active gum health mouthwash. - i got the cabin for three days. it's gonna be sweet! what? i'm 12 hours short. - have a fun weekend. - ♪ unnecessary action hero! unnecessary. ♪ - was that necessary? - no. neither is a blown weekend. with paycom, employees do their own payroll so you can fix problems before they become problems. - hmm! get paycom and make the unnecessary, unnecessary. - see you down the line. ♪ ♪ ♪♪ voltaren. the joy of movement. ♪♪ >> on may 25th 2020, the death of george floyd at the hands of minneapolis police spawned a racial reckoning across the country. that same day, though more than 1000 miles away, another racist incident was also a part of that tipping point. you may remember christian cooper, who was birdi

to join me now to help sort through all of these new details, former federal prosecutor glenn kirschnerorrespondent tÉa mitchell. all right, glenn, can you just explain exactly what a target letter is, why do federal prosecutors and what it means for possible third trump indictments. all very succinctly, so my grandmother can understand. >> sure simone. so, prosecutors sometimes will send the target of a grand jury investigation, a target letter. but often we won't. when we have a large scale investigations that are overt, in other words, everybody knows that jack smith has been investigating donald trump, right? so there's no secret here. so what they will do is they'll send a letter to the target of the investigation, a target is a person they are intending to indict, and they will invite them to come before the grand jury, and if they want to give their side of the story, if they want to explain to the grand jury under oath why the prosecutors have it all wrong, they really didn't commit any crimes, they didn't do anything wrong, the target has that opportunity. people may ask, well

. >> david anderson, glenn kirschner, jill wine-banks, thank you all for your analysis as always. just a coincidence that arguably the most corrupt president in u.s. history were once pen pals? more on the trump and nixon letters in a moment. s in i'm a bear. i'm coming out of hibernation after the best nap of my life... and papa is hungry. and while you're hittin' the trail, i'm hitting your cooler. oh, cheddar! i've got hot dog buns! and your cut-rate car insurance might not pay for all this. so get allstate, and be better protected from mayhem, like me. roar. (sfx: family screams in background) we really don't want people to think of feeding food like ours is spoiling their dogs. good, real food is simple. it looks like food, it smells like food, it's what dogs are supposed to be eating. no living being should ever eat processed food for every single meal of their life. it's amazing to me how many people write in about their dogs changing for the better. the farmer's dog is just our way to help people take care of them. ♪ at denny's, we're celebrating baconalia. with new creati

glenn kirschner, msnbc legal analyst and former prosecutor and judge the doors claudell, the author of my life on the bench. what works what's broken and how to change it. thank you both for coming back on the show. dutch cordell, the last time we spoke, you are on my peacock show talking about judge cannon's interesting role at the -- the conflicts of interest. she is now split the difference on timing and scheduling this trial later than the december date that the team wanted. not to be and definite postponement that trump wanted. that our federal state for trump or for smith? >> preliminarily, the argument that trump made that it should be postponed because he's going to be really busy running for president the implication was that if he were to be elected he would then would not be busy. he would deal with all the litigation. it is absurd. it's more harder to run for president than to actually be president that being said the day that she picked is likely a realistic update at the same time it's also likely to be continued because of pretrial motions and i don't think he she'd assa

. >> glenn kirschner, thank you as always, sir, appreciate it.economy for a moment, folks. despite adding, we've got the job support, right? 200,000 new jobs in june. it was the first time in 15 months that job growth fell short of expectations. consumer spending also showing signs of slowing, indicating the high interest rates in effect are working as planned. however, that could change in a couple days with some of the biggest shopping deals of the year. we want to nbc's marissa -- standing by for us with more on this. what should shoppers be looking forward to in this black friday in the middle of summer? >> yeah, well, black friday in july. it is already here. if you look down to amazon anytime lately, finally seen them very loudly advertising amazon prime days. that starts on tuesday. target sales went live today, the bigger picture, looking at data from an april survey by the new york fed, americans have overwhelmingly been scaling back on spending. ovewe're gonna hear but as the median expect to change a household spending, it's a stark di

drumming to discuss is the formal prosecutor glenn kirschner he's also the host of the podcast justicerevisiting the story how big of a deal is this now that he is being added to the prosecution's case. >> it's a big deal for a couple of reasons. anytime you add a codefendant or conspirator to the mix there is a chance that that person will cooperate with the authorities against the bigger criminal fish people should know that often prosecutors will find developing witnesses before people are indicted because those potential witnesses want to play hardball and they see their name as a marquee defendant on the wrong side of the v. versus carlos and sometimes that is a wake up call. i've had lots of defendants hold strong but once they saw their name on an indictment they decided it became very real and it would often jump-start discussions between prosecutors and defense attorneys trying to break that newly-charged defendant on board as a co-operator. >> from what we, know might he flip? >> you know there's always a chance does he want to go down with donald trump because if you read th

nbc news justice correspondent ken dilanian is there and former prosecutor glenn kirschner. of the grand jury have been spotted there. what do we know about what's happening? >> reporter: there's not a lot that we do know at this point. what we know is members of the grand jury, the grand jury that we're focused on, started coming into the building around 8:30 this morning. we're making an assumption they're in session. no members of the prosecution team, jack smith, none of them have been spotted. again, they're sneaky making their way into this building. there's lots of entrances. i'm in front of the courthouse to give you a sense of where i am. i am looking at the capitol over my left shoulder. behind the courthouse there's various entrances you can get in via van or car. just because we haven't seen them, doesn't mean they're not here. will they, will they not vote on this today? we don't know. let's say that do. let me walk you through what's going to happen from what we know would normally happen. let's remember, this is the former president of the united states. this

msnbc legal analyst, glenn kirschner, and joyce vance are standing by to go in-depth on all of trump's legal woes, like only they can. plus, whitewashing ballot history. vice president kamala harris is blistering rebuke of the desantis backed florida education plan, to teach florida students that black people benefited from slavery because it's useful skills. and later, fever pitch. the u.s. women's national soccer team thrives as they try to win a third straight world cup. we will take you to new zealand for a live report, all of that and more is coming up. ♪ ♪ ♪ and a good saturday morning to you all. i am katie phang. we begin this hour with our country on the verge of yet another unprecedented moment in history. we are bracing for that possible third and fourth criminal indictments against a former president, donald trump, potentially dropping over the next few weeks. just days after sending trump a target letter. special counsel jack smith is zeroing in on the january six war room. county d.a. fani willis hints at final charges in her election interference case. let's not forget t

. >> david anderson, glenn kirschner, jill wine-banks, thank you all for your analysis as always. just a coincidence that arguably the most corrupt president in u.s. history were once pen pals? more on the trump and nixon letters in a moment. years ago, we used to just fall asleep with a full face of makeup. don't regret, just reverse. no7's new future renew with a world-first peptide technology no other skincare product has. even those that cost 10 times more. reverse visible signs of skin damage in 4 weeks. when i was diagnosed with h-i-v, i didn't know who i would be. but here i am... being me. keep being you... and ask your healthcare provider about the number one prescribed h-i-v treatment, biktarvy. biktarvy is a complete, one-pill, once-a-day treatment used for h-i-v in many people whether you're 18 or 80. with one small pill, biktarvy fights h-i-v to help you get to undetectable—and stay there whether you're just starting or replacing your current treatment. research shows that taking h-i-v treatment as prescribed and getting to and staying undetectable prevents transmitti

now, look, we cover developments in the federal probe every day, and we have our lawyers glenn kirschnerut these developments, plus donald trump says that legal filing in georgia today and the possibility of a new person being charged in the classified documents

now, look, we cover developments in the federal probe every day, and we have our lawyers glenn kirschner and paul butler join us later in the hour to talk about these developments, plus donald trump says that legal filing in georgia today and the possibility of a new person being charged in the classified documents case. but i want to start by looking at the bigger picture and ask why we absolutely need to hold everyone involved in this gargantuan anti-democratic efforts to account. it's bad enough that it happened. and but for a few good people doing the right thing at the right time, it could have succeeded. but this is not a past tense discussion. this crime against democracy remains in progress. donald trump is still lying about the election results. he is now attacking, on a daily and sometimes hourly basis, jack smith, prosecutors across the country, the men and women of the fbi, and the justice department. federal judges, the whole united states government, and the rule of law -- and the republicans in congress who could have washed their hands of trump, after he lost, we'll, take

as glenn kirschner said yesterday, that original decision broke his heart.ury findings are, and how much you think that weighed on doj's reversal. >> pretty powerful. and look, you're right. it was always an iffy decision, and part of what was going on was merrick garland when he came in, his resolve to try to not look political, not shift in the wind. and a coule things about this now 4-year-old lawsuit. first it went through the courts. while the courts gave guidance saying subjective intent really matters here. when you see him and more importantly after the town hall has ronell has been talking about saying she is a whack job, it does seem like personal grievance. they also did point to the saying it seems more likely that it's a personal grievance. as ronnell says, the case now goes forward. i think it was already set up for that because it was ultimately in the decision of judge caplan, who is overseeing this with a stern hand. it's going go in january of 2024. he seems adamant about keeping it that way. he was really tough in the previous trial. and j

joining me now is attorney lisa ruben and glenn kish kirschner. the superpac is supposed to be for his campaign but the fact he's diverting money and essentially having his you know, supporters who aren't rich people pay for his legal defense seems odd to me. is it legal? >> it's questionable. one of the questions that i think the january 6th investigation has been looking into, by that, jack smith's investigation, is whether or not there's fraud involved when you're raising money and telling people that money is for your election and for your political life and then diverting those funds as you just said, to the legal defense of yourself and others. we know that one of the things that jack smith's folks have looked at is whether that constituted the ordinary crime of federal wire fraud. when you're basically using the wires here, e-mail fund raising, text fund raising, to convince people to give you money even in small increments for electoral purposes and yet then using them for something wholly other than your electoral future. >> it is odd. gl