let's visit this grover norquist issue. i think on tuesday in an interview with your "washington post" editorial board, grover norquist, the man famous for his anti-tax pledge, said that not renewing the bush tax cuts would not violate his pledge. listen to some of that audio released. >> not continuing a tax cut is not technically a tax increase. >> stow does not violate the pledge. >> we wouldn't hold it that way. it would be a very bad thing to do. it would raise taxes from where they are today. >> who don't follow the inside baseball the way you and i eat, drink and sleep it. what is the significance of grover norquist saying that? >> for people who don't know, grover norquist since 1985 has run a group called americans for tax reform pap d.c.-based group that does a lot of thing. basically, to hold the line on no tax increases for republicans. every time someone runs for office, grover and his group get them to sign a pledge essentially saying they will not raise taxes or revenue increases at all. the result of that is

. >> who made grover norquist king? >> the people have made this commitment not to raise taxes. >> if you raise tax rates, that is violating a tax pledge. >> 232 of the 240 have signed the no tax increase pledge. >> americans for tax reform would oppose any effort to weaken, reduce, or not continue the 2001-2003 bush tax cuts. >>> rumors swept the capital this morning that the president and speaker of the house were close to an agreement on a deal, a deal that sent waves of panic through washington. democrats and republicans, who assumed their side must have given up too much. in order to strike such a deal. faced with a possible muteiny in his caucus, speak are boehner used a method that no speaker has used before to calm his troops. he tweeted. one word. false. meaning, there is no deal. the speaker then said this in a press conference. >> i believe that the congress must act before august 2. and i hope that we're prepared to do that. i'll keep my discussions with the president between the president and myself. it wou

what has been the impact of grover norquist and that no tax pledge on all these negotiations?> well, it's been very significant, because republicans have taken the position that i think is out of step with most of the american people, that you cannot raise one penny of revenue from closing corporate tax loopholes, whether it's oil companies or corporate jets or whatever it is, you can't do that for the purposes of reducing the deficit, and the president put on the table a plan that calls for $3 in cuts to every $1 in revenue to try and get to a ten-year $4 trillion plan but because of grover norquist's pledge, republicans seem to be more worried about him than they are about reducing the deficit. that has been an impediment. we're hoping that maybe we can see some breakthrough there. you need a breakthrough there if you're going to get a balanced approach and you need a balanced approach if you're going to get a big deal. >> is nancy pelosi, are you democrats going to be able to provide enough democratic votes to help john boehner out as he tries to pull this together, even de

grover norquist. i'll speak with him in a few minutes. first, background on who grover norquist is. >> a fascinating man. got a start in politics early. at 12 hopped on a train, headed to boston to volunteer nor richard nixon and held on to his conservative values since. he believes in small government, lower taxes, limited government services. >> that's mitt romney. michele bachmann. >> reporter: in this black behinder our signed pledges from the gop presidential candidate, grover norquist, president and founder of americans for tax reform, has secured their signatures as well as those of most of the congressional republicans. all committing to not raise taxes. hundreds of names with the originals safely stored away. where are the pledges? everybody wants to know. where are the pledges? >> we keep the original pledges inside a vault that can't be burned, a safe vault, but keep multiple copies. we want to promise voters and elected officials that their pledge will be there forever. >> reporter: in some ways this father of two young toddle

grover norquist.mitchell has his story. >> reporter: grover norquist is a behind-the-scenes power broker who's never held office. a self-described reagan republican who even tries his hand at standup. >> bourbon, neat, no water, my rule, never drink water, dick cheney tortures people with it. >> reporter: but about taxes, he is deadly serious. >> the folks who have fought for tax increases after promising not to, and then down here in blue, across here, are the ones who are defeated. >> reporter: for 24 years he's been getting candidates, almost all republican, to sign a simple pledge. >> read my lips. no new taxes. >> reporter: republican lawmakers remember how that worked out, defeated after one term. so 236 have taken the vow. >> grover went around and said, sign this. any guy that would sign something before he or she confronts the issue has really sold part of their soul. >> reporter: this week he told the "washington post" letting the bush tax cuts expire at the end of next year would not violat

grover norquist the author of this. it goes back to 1986, i don't have to tell you. i sat down with grover norquist today and asked why the elimination as scheduled of the bush tax cuts would not -- would violate the pledge? he is saying as he said today again in "the new york times," read my lips no new taxes that it would violate the pledge. this was his answer. >> one just has to recognize that in changing the 2001, 2003 rules are you dramatically increasing revenue. you're increasing the total cost to government. >> you're not changing the rules were set to expire. there's no change. you're not voting for anything. you're just letting something happen. >> if congress -- if congress -- to get into hypotheticals can martians came and took everybody away and something lapsed -- but congress is sitting here meeting. congress wants to spend the money. the challenge is how do we reduce the overspending as part of an agreement on a debt ceiling, tax increases are off the table. >> what do you say to grover norquist about his claim that letting the bush tax cuts expire i

grover norquist. thanks for coming on. get the people informed about your pledge, we'll read it. we have it now. i pledge to the tax players whatever direct or state to the american people i will, one, oppose any or all efforts to increase the margin 7 income tax rates for business and/or businesses and oppose debt reduction or eliminations or credits unless matched dollar for dollar by further reductions in tax rates. how successful have you been in nailing down republicans in this pledge? >> sure. offering this pledge to candidates for the house and senate and president for the last 24 years. today 235 members of the house have signed the pledge that are sitting in the house of representatives. 41 senators. so a majority of house members and 41 senators. 1,200 state legislators, 13 governors. >> this is the first time it's had sort of the drama as you know. you're probably happy about this. a lot of people aren't happy. explain why you are willing to hold people to this tax pledge even if it means at least between now an

grover norquist is also a tough customer. for years that any time republicans make deals with democrats, their democrats will shun the deal. he said publicly, quote, bipartisanship is a form of -- very, very tough language. he does not mind using the whip on people who get out of line. >> i've been in washington a long time. the frustration level right now, enormous, and the stakes clearly enormous as well. listen to what john mccain said today. i'll play the clip. >> my kids and my grandkids, i am very worried about because we have spent ourselves into a hole that we can only make very tough decisions and clearly we are not making those decisions here in washington, d.c. it's hard trying to do the large work in the city of satan. >> he used that line before, but it's still a very powerful line, david. >> it sure is. i think what we're seeing, wolf, is the disfunctionality of washington which is usually below the service, is now in stark review for all americans to see. we've gone through this a couple times before in recent

grover norquist, when we come back in a moment. you're watching "hardball" on msnbc. >> in a bit of you a surprise this there a fluly financial bureau. passing over elizabeth warren who was the driving force of course behind the bureau's creation and has supported passionate by many on the pro resive left. with warren's strong opposition and talk she could run for the senate -- heard it myself up in massachusetts -- against the new senator, scott brown. we'll be right back. [ dr. ling ] i need to get the results from the m.r.i. see if the blood work is ready. review ms. cooper's history. and i want to see katie before she goes home. [ male announcer ] with integrated healthcare solutions from dell, every patient file is where dr. ling needs it. now she can spend more time with patients and less time on paperwork. ♪ dell. the power to do more. ♪ somewhere in america, a city comes to life. it moves effortlessly, breathes easily. it flows with clean water. it makes its skyline greener and its population healthier. all to become the ki

please welcome grover norquist.eers and applause) >> good to see you, steven. >> stephen: three years, something like that? >> exactly about three years, yeah. >> stephen: good to see you again. now, sir, for some of the people who may not know what americans for tax reform is, explain what the purpose of your organization is. >> first of all, we ask all candidates for office to sign a pledge not to raise taxes then we let voters know who's willing to make that commitment and who does or doesn't live by it. >> stephen: how long have you been doing that? >> 20 years. >> stephen: really. >> yup. >> stephen: and you've got it on record. is this the pledge right here? >> that's the pledge. >> stephen: so they take this pledge and you've got a record of them having taken the pledge and if they back out on this pledge? >> well.... >> stephen: it's hammer time! >> the american people, they're actual voters. the pledge is not to americans for tax reform, it's the the voters of their state and the american people. and people

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grover norquist joins us. your lobbying group has gotten more than 230 house republicans and nearly 40 gop senators to sign a pledge never to support an increase in taxes. and you warn those who break your pledge will pay a political price. are you the reason that we don't have a debt ceiling increase right now? >> well, as you know, the pledge, the taxpayer protection pledge, is a pledge that candidates for office and house and senate members and presidents signed to the voters of their state and to the nation. the pledge isn't to americans for tax reform. it isn't to me. the american taxpayers have asked and elected a majority in the house of representatives and 41 members of the senate who ran, committing not to raise taxes. >> right. >> our friends, president obama, has said he won't try and solve the problem he created with his spending -- >> wait, wait, wait. what do you mean he created with his spend? you didn't just suggest our budget problem is because of president obama, did you, grover? >> well, see

grover norquist, president of americans for tax reform. tax enforcers in the gop for over a quarter century. he's gotten 234 house republicans, and 41 gop senators to sign his pledge not to raise taxes. he's the reason we see republicans saying, the same thing over and over again. >> we should not be raising taxes. >> now is not the time to raise taxes. >> i've never voted to raise taxes and i don't intend to. >> josh, isn't grover's no-tax pledge the reason we're in the mess that we're in with the debt talks right now? >> i don't think so at all. i think excessive federal spending is the reason we are in the mess we're in right now. but to answer your question, does foefr nor gift run the gop? i'm happy to give grover credit to do more than o any other single person. i'm here to tell you as a conservative and a republican, i'm happy on the idea of taxes to follow him. >> so ronald reagan was not a good president because he raised the taxes 11 times. . so you and grover would say, let's get away from ronald reagan's legacy? >> yeah, i'm ju

we'll move on to grover norquist. have you heard about this? >> i was curious what howard dean thought about this deal. democrats are upset the president may be making a deal with john boehner that doesn't have the type of tax increases they want. is it a sell-out by the president? should he take the deal? >> we don't know what's in the deal. it's hard to talk about a deal where nobody knows what is in it. >> harry reid has a good idea and leaders in the house, there aren't increases in taxes along the lines they wanted. the bush tax increases don't come into effect. >> well, again, joe, i mean, what does go into effect? the principle here is you have to have increase in revenues and also budget cuts. that spreads the pain from people who make $1 million to people barely getting by. it's the core principle. if that principle is in the deal, it's great. if it's not in the deal, it's probably not going to pass. >> what are you hearing on the hill? >> the reason they are upset is the content of the deal and they are not in the room. >> they have b

urging the republicans now to step back, put their party caucuses aside, put their pledges to grover norquist aside, put their caucus pledges to one congress manor the other aside, and put this country first. >> it's unfair of the president of the united states to lead from behind. it's unfair of the president of the united states not to come forward with a specific plan that perhaps could be considered by both bodies, but only to go out and give lectures. >> we are not going to hold this country hostage to the tea party. that's where it's at. you know, those folks over there, about 80 of them and maybe even more of those republicans, they pledged to grover norquist. i want to pledge allegiance to the united states of america and that's what we all should be doing right now. >> senator boxer right there referring to grover norquist, you've been hearing his name a lot over the last several weeks. he will join us later on "morning joe." . deficit game blame is not playing well on wall street. the indexes worst one-day drop in two months yesterday. let's look at the markets, anna edwards live in

apparently giving a green light by grover norquist?

consider this, rolling out a plan with $9 trillion in deficit reduction and grover norquist panned it because it closes some tax loopholes. coburn told nbc, this is a sick place. i mean, think about it. you don't want to make this deal because it's good for the country but it's bad for me? we need a bunch of spinal transplants in both parties. so what is the public stand about this? a massive messaging war, if you will, between the two parties for the last three or four week. the new nbc/"wall street journal" poll and i can tell you one thing it's pretty decisive. that's tonight on the "nbc nightly news," all about the debt ceiling as well as an update on where the presidential race stands. >>> speaking of purity any politics, the house votes today on its so-called cut, cap and balance legislation. it cuts the deficit, catches federal spending as a percent of the economy and requires passage of a balanced budget amendment with a two-thirds majority for tax increases before the debt limit is raised. almost certain to die in the senate. the president promised to veto the bill, of course

come back, lawrence o'donnell, we're coming back, lawrence o'donnell is going to be talking to grover norquistrs. >> you guys are honored guests on my show. >> we shall return talking about grover's tax pledge and if it really is going to cause locust to -- [ female announcer ] what if your natural beauty could be flawless too? discover aveeno positively radiant tinted moisturizers with scientifically proven soy complex and natural minerals. give you sheer coverage instantly, then go on to even skin tone in four weeks. aveeno tinted moisturizers. then go on to even skin tone in four weeks. somewhere in america, a city comes to life. it moves effortlessly, breathes easily. it flows with clean water. it makes its skyline greener and its population healthier. all to become the kind of city people want to live and work in. somewhere in america, we've already answered some of the nation's toughest questions. and the over sixty thousand people of siemens are ready to do it again. siemens. answers. >>> the speaker's plan is on life support and it's time for him to pull the plug. we need to move on to

grover norquist responded this morning to steny hoyer on our air. take a listen. >> hoyer is wrong. the answer is the people who made this commitment not to raise taxes made it clear they're not raising taxes and boehner and the other republicans have said that independent of the pledge. there's certain things you could do techniqcally and not violate the pledge but the americans would understand is a tax release. americans for tax reform reject any effort to reduce or not continue the 2001-2003 bush tax cuts. >> the question now becomes did grover norquist say unequivocally did any non-extension of the bush tax cuts equal a tax raise. seems like there is wiggle room there. why is that important? house republicans said repeatedly they will not allow tax increases to be part of a debt reduction deal. if there is leeway there, forever grover is not saying unequivocally, not the bush tax cuts, maybe there will be a vote. >> will this give people on the hill whiplash? >> reporter: there's so many different trains, no one knows what will get in the station. no one knows. on health care a

you said grover norquist is my boss i. think she. >> how sillsy that? >> he wrote the petition and you signed it. you did what he told you to do chris, i've signed a number of petitions. >> why? >> why did the senate vote 97-0 nothing, chris, 97-0 against the president's budget? why? >> sir -- >> why? why? >> i'm just asking -- we're not getting anywhere. this is childish. i've asked why -- >> chris, this is why a lot of people don't come on your show, because it tends to get childish. you don't let people answer, my friend. look, the house is going to do something historic tonight. you may not like it, but let's see how this plays out. and i think there's a fighting chance this year to pass a balanced budget amendment out of both houses. by way, do you support that, chris? do you support -- >> sir, you called the president of the united states a liar, then said -- >> no, i've said he lied. i've said he's lied, chris. >> okay. your pal joe wilson says he's a liar. you say he's lying. i think it's bad behavior. >> we're all in the same game. >> yes. >> b

she proposed nothing. >> what about grover norquist and the no tax crowd relative to coburn who says year going to eliminate -- >> i totally agree. if you are raising -- i agree with grover, if you are raising the margin the rates on income tax -- lgts that's not what we're talking about. what we're talking about is the elimination of sdub sdis -- >> the vast majority of conservatives agree getting rid of ethanol subsidies are not tax increases, getting rid of breaks that shouldn't have been granted in the first place. >> grover norquist doesn't agree. i agree, but there's a political problem here where whether you have -- >> i think there is both an economic and a political problem. the economic problem is, i think you don't raise taxes. >> we get that, but that's about -- he's not -- coburn is not suggesting that. >> he's not suggesting that. and i think the conservative position, reasonably, can be defined as looking to lower the rates, the margin the rates on individual and on corporations. >> what about the sdub skies removal? >> getting rid of subsidies, getting rid of loopholes

grover norquist was nude gingrich's butt buddy. jack abra hof's buddy.ed peoples 25ds,000 a pop to go to a bush white house signing ceremony. he is a petty crim kninal and m just about every single member of the house of republicans, on the republican side, not the tea party, and almost all republican. s signing a pledge saying they will never, ever for the rest of their lives raise taxes. i need to know -- do we have on the left of grover norquist, and if we don't, why not? because i need to know why it is one man, who's never had an elected office in his life -- >> a couple of points. first of all, this tax thing is beyond crazy. i read an article today that there are republicans who are backing away from the boehner plan. i thought, hmm. that's interesting. maybe they're moving towards reid's. no. they're backingy with from the boehner plan because it's not conservative enough. afraid there's a tax increase and boehner is on the radio explaining to rush limbaugh, no way. can't happen. so this is -- this pledge -- i put it right in the same camp at the

. >> rose: whado you think of grover norquist's tax pledge? >> i agree with grover on 99% of what he's talking about. i think... i really think the government's too big. i think we're outside the bounds of the enumerated powers and i think the problem is too big government we need to put it on a very strict atkins' style diet and lose about six or eight inches in its waistband. but i don't agree with him when it comes to tax expenditures that are stupid and calling that a tax increase if you take away the direct payments to somebody to get the todo something they already have todo. so in philosophy i agree, we need a smaller government, a more limited government, a more effective vernment, but i think the idea of somebody outside of congress telling us what our tax policy would be is ludicrous. >> rose: (laughs) this is what... i should make a point that we invited senator durbin and senator conrad tonight as well a they'll appear hopefully later this week. this is what david brooks said, as you well know. "if the republican party were a normal

perhaps no one has had more sway than republicans in this fight than grover norquist. he's here to dish on the debt and deal in taxes. and big money, big problems? mitt romney's campaign is debt free, but where is all that money coming from? we'll tell you why it could add up to a little bit of trouble for the republican front-runner. good morning, it's monday, july 18th, 2011. i'm chuck todd. just 15 days until default day. let's get right to my first reads of the morning. it's a week of public spectacle and private wrangling. efforts to get a big debt deal done has failed. >> when you look in the past at agreements between divided government, it's taken leadership on both sides. it took reagan and o'neil. it took clinton and gingrich. the president is out there. he's willing to do it. he said it in the state of the union, he said it in the budget. the question is, do we have a partner to work with? and i hope the answer to that is yes. >> this week we'll see a two-track process. publicly, leaders will get a few votes out of the way to allow conservatives to get on th

it would go a substantial way toward enshrining grover norquist norquist's version of america into law. bob greenstein joins me later. barack obama recognizes it for what it is, nothing but a one-day stunt that has no chance of becoming law, so the obama administration are still talking positively about the possibility of raising the debt ceiling. this morning, president obama said he, and republicans leaders were "making progress in the negotiations." and treasury secretary tim geithner said this on cnbc this morning. >> you've seen the leadership of the republican party in the senate and the house definitively take default off the table as leverage for a deal, and that's encouraging. geithner remains adamant that revenues be part of any deficit reduction deal. >> it's also going to require, through tax reform, some modest changes in revenues so that we're not sustaining tax breaks for the most fortunate 2% of americans, tax breaks we can't afford. we need to have a balanced package. everybody who's looked at this knows we need to have a balanced package. no deal in history that neede

. >> they are terrified of grover norquist. >> the answer is no. no. >> and for once, republican presidential candidates have money problems. >> and big money, big problems? gop fundraisers staying on the sidelines. >> mitt romney, 70% maxed out contributions. >> gingrich's campaign is $1 million in debt. >> and the arrests continue as the british police close in on rupert murdoch's media empire scandal. >> every day we're seeing more inconceivable things happen. >> in the last 24 hours, two high-level resignations. >> head of scotland yard resigned yesterday. >> rebekah brooks was released on jail. >> rupert murdoch is said to face the scandal head-on tomorrow. >> now we move to david cameron. >> is cutting short a trip today to south africa. >> order. when are they going to do the decent thing and resign? >> congress now has 15 days to pass a bill to raise the debt ceiling before the united states government goes into a catastrophic default on august 2nd. today harry reid announced the senate will meet every day until the debt ceiling is raised.

democrats, including chuck schumer, wasted little time pouncing on norquist's remarks. >> grover norquist, the hall monitor, when it comes to enforcing the republican party's anti-tax pledge, has given house republicans a hall pass. they should use it. this is a coded message from one of the truest believers in the republican party that it's time for conservatives to step back from the brink. >> apparently norquist is rescinding that hall pass. he quickly walked back his comments during an interview with msnbc. >> there's certain things you could do technically and not violate the pledge but that the general public would clearly understand it's a tax increase. so i can be clear, americans for tax reform would oppose any effort to weaken, reduce or not continue the 2001/2003 bush tax cuts. >> and by not extending the bush tax cuts lawmakers could potentially bring in as much as $4 trillion in new tax revenue. >>> european leaders have agreed to a bold plan to help greece get out of its debt, announcing a new bailout for the country worth an estimated, get this, $157 billion. the deal's imp

senator that's signed grover norquist never, ever pledge. what power that man has. when we come back, michele bachmann's family business includes counseling gays to become straight. does that seem odd, even to conservative republicans? chris: welcome back. is michele bachmann too extreme even for many christian conservatives? one of her central causes has been opposition to gay rights. >> if you're involved in the gay and lesbian lifestyle, it's bondage. it is personal bondage. personal despair and personal enslavement. and that's why this is so dangerous. chris: bondage enslavement. is that anti-gay fervor of hers where most americans, even conservative voters, are today? this week a gay advocacy group came out with undercover video of a counseling session at the clinic that bachmann owns with her husband marcus. the video seems to confirm the bachmanm's not only oppose gay rights but actively try to convert, if you will, gays using a religious message. >> the truth is god designed the guy to be attracted to the woman's body, to be attracted to, you know, everythin

no way says grover norquist who heads americans for tax reform. some say the reason there isn't is debt deal on the table yet is because of you and your pledge. >> the reason there isn't a tax increase on the table is that 235 members of the house of representatives signed a pledge to their voters never to raise taxes and several senate members did. they came tooling and said we are not going to raise taxes, end of conversation. >> you went to them and said hey, don't you want to sign this? what do you say? >> absolutely. we share it with them. often political activists and tea party activists share the ledge. if you going to run for office will you mitt in citing, not in a speech, not as an aside, with two witnesses, not that we don't trust anybody but we have two witnesses and it is dated and then we make many copies and show them to everybody. we want to make sure that if people take the pledge that voters know that people want to them to keep. >> i played clips at the bebeginning of the show people saying debt ceiling, what is that? the majori

no way says grover norquist who heads americans for tax reform. some say the reason there isn't is debt deal on the table yet is because of you and your pledge. >> the reason there isn't a tax increase on the table is that 235 members of the house of representatives signed a pledge to their voters never to raise taxes and several senate members did. they came tooling and said we are not going to raise taxes, end of conversation. >> you went to them and said hey, don't you want to sign this? what do you say? >> absolutely. we share it with them. often political activists and tea party activists share the ledge. if you going to run for office will you mitt in citing, not in a speech, not as an aside, with twone witnesses, not that we don't trust anybody but we have two witnesses and it is dated and then we make many copies and show them to everybody. we want to make sure that if people take the pledge that voters know that people want to them to keep. >> i played clips at the bebeginning of the show people saying debt ceiling, what is that? the majo

well, yes, i will take credit for -- or blame really for grover norquist. was one of the many conservatives, ann coulter, laura ingram, lots of people who we introduced to the american public back in the '90s on "politically correct." we needed foils for me, and, i guess, they are getting the last laugh since they are actually controlling america now. but yes, grover certainly has not changed. i think he came up with this pledge in high school and has not changed. no matter what happens in the world, we cannot raise taxes, and, of course, getting people to sign a pledge so american, because it's part of that same intellectual sinkhole where we get three strikes you're out, and zero tolerance, things where people do not have to think. that's what americans, especially our leaders, are always trying to do, get to a place where you don't have to think about something. which is ironic because these are the people who always claim they are belovers of the constitution and the founding fathers. this is very much against what the founding fathers would have wanted

. >>> 236 congressman and 31 senators have signed grover norquist's pledge promising they won't raiset letting the bush tax cuts expire. in this morning's "washington post" editorial page, grover norquist said, no, not continuing a tax cut is not technically a tax increase. joining us, the president of republicans for tax reform. is that correct? you surprised and shockeded the editorial board. is that indeed your position now? >> i think they need to follow the rest of the conversation that wouldn't pass the last test to go to the american people and tell them you just allowed 4 trillion dollars in higher taxes while allowing the 2001-2003 lower rates to laps and tell people that's not a tax increase. it clearly would be a dramatic tax increase in taxes. how you get into cbo scoring and technicalities is a different issue in terms of taxes lapsing. anything that would allow the top rate to go from 35 to 40 and lower rates from jobs to capital gains tax to jobs and a $4 trillion tax increase. >> i want to make sure i understand you. so many of the republicans who have signed this pled

governor -- excuse me, grover n norquist is playing a big part in this stance. he was on the air earlier today talking about where he stands on all of this. take a listen. >> obama wants to say, you know what the problem is, the peasants aren't sending enough cash to pay for my government, we should raise taxes. no. raising taxes does not do anything to help cut spending. raising taxes is what obama and other democrats do sfed of cutting spending. >> so here's grover norquist, a man not in an elected position by anyone in america yet he holds a choke hold on republicans because he had them sign the tax pledge. do you think that there's really anything substantial that can be accomplished with so many house republicans having signed that? >> it's going to be really tough, because until our republican colleagues are more worried about reducing the deficit than they're worried about what grover norquist has to say, we're going to be in trouble. he said the president wants the peasants to send the revenues. the fact is we're talking about closing corporate loopholes

no way says grover norquist who heads americans for tax reform. some say the reason there isn't is debt deal on the table yet is because of you and your pledge. >> the reason there isn't a tax increase on the table is that 235 members of the house of representatives signed a pledge to their voters never to raise taxes and several senate members did. they came tooling and said we are not going to raise taxes, end of conversation. >> you went to them and said hey, don't you want to sign this? what do you say? >> absolutely. we share it with them. often political activists and tea party activists share the ledge. if you going to run for office will you mitt in citing, not in a speech, not as an aside, with two witnesses, not that we don't trust anybody but we have two witnesses and it is dated and then we make many copies and show them to everybody. we want to make sure that if people take the pledge that voters know that people want to them to keep. >> i played clips at the bebeginning of the show people saying debt ceiling, what is that? the majori

and both sides having to agree what we've seen from grover norquist and that wing of the party, and you have 246 house members that have signed the no-tax pledge. a handful of republicans that the speaker could not deliver his caucus. i'm not at all sure the president could have delivered not only the entitlement cuts, but the triggers. it was all about the triggers, and the triggers in one side was if the tax increases or tax reform and spending cuts didn't materialize by 2013, then the bush tax cuts would have to be extended and have to give up the mandate on health care. when you think about the political price this president said for that mandate, to give that up at that stage, that was something they were not going to be able to sell. i spoke to barney frank and he was livid. >> i think you're right, andrea, and one of the indicators of that on the democratic side is they never had caucus meetings. they never brought anything to caucus meetings in the senate or house to say look, this is the general shape of what you might be asked to vote on in a couple of days. that means there i

norquist comes out and says no no i didn't mean it all of a sudden boehner says no deal so is grover norquist the man behind the curtain for the republicans. well he certainly has an enormous amount of influence we saw a couple of months back a little bit of pushback from senate republicans against norquist no tax rate ever under any circumstances pledge you know with this full wealthy being the job creators me and i think we have to understand that that's not an economic argument it's a political argument designed to get us to the. the polling data that you presented in your opening you know they can't just say that they have posed tax increases for the wealthiest americans than he did in closing loopholes on corporate jets and as the obama administration let's talk about they have to say that this will come with dire unanticipated consequences and that's what this this narrative this talking point is really about after world war two our debt was as i recall it one hundred twenty six percent of g.d.p. it was substantially higher than it is today relative g.d.p. and yet we spend our way out o

economy and companies won't hire if they don't have demand for their goods and services today grover norquist suggested that any tax cuts doesn't necessarily mean raising taxes and thus doesn't violate the pledge most republicans signed and then right after that news came out he was speaker boehner and president deals that they were close to a deal and then norquist comes out and says no no i didn't mean it all of a sudden boehner says no deal so is grover norquist the man behind the curtain for the republicans and is gauche well he certainly has an enormous amount of influence we saw a couple of months back a little bit of pushback from senate republicans against norquist no tax very ever under any circumstances pledge you know with this whole well being the job creators i mean i think we have to understand that that's not an economic argument it's a political argument designed to get the. the polling data that you presented in your opening you know they can't just say that they have those tax increases for the wealthiest americans and even closing loopholes on corporate jets and as the obam

is the gang of six proposal a framework of deal for grover norquist tonight, can it be? >> no.'ve been saying, it's not even written down. it's an essay. it was deliberately dropped yesterday in order to distract people from what the house representatives actually passed which was a plan which was actually written down. the president doesn't like it, the democrats don't like it, it dropped $2.5 trillion in real spending restraint, called for a balanced budget amendment with two-thirds required to raise taxes. with very serious tax caps in the future. i don't expect the president and reid to like it, but the whole thing about dropping the gang of six nonplan, nonwritten-down plan on top of it was to distract from the fact that the house has actually put something on the table and the senate has nothing. >> okay. but the house plan says no new revenues. the president wants new receive you ins. the republicans control the house. they just won it in an election fair and square, the democrats narrowly control the senate, a democratic president, and jay carney said, look, we know you

some say grover norquist is a man of the middle of the debt crisis, president of americans for tax reformbers congress signed his anti-tax pledge. grover you're the eye of the tiger in all of this, people take their lead from you on the republican side. there will be no tax increases. most impartial observers outside of america say that is crazy, and you have got to change your attitude to this and allow some tax increases. >> well, since the problem that america faces is our government is spending too much money, over the last ten years, certainly it's sped up over the last two to three years, the only way to solve overspending problem is to spend less. raising taxes is what politicians do rather than reduce spending. so taxes should be off the table for two reasons. one it distracts from cutting spending, it gets the in the way of reducing spending. but also tax reform is something we need to do put some time and effort into it, think it through, over the next couple of years should radically reform the tax code and have lower rates, as reagan moved to do in '86, not a tax increase the