even though hamas had one then they tried to destroy hamas as they did hezbollah by encouraging very sorry to enter a we're going to have to go i wish you were going to go to a short break after a short break we'll continue our discussion on exporting democracy stay with her. story. the system that made him was the warnings out. children entirely it's nice to democracy a symbol of ethics reform and desperate ambition jealousy in the first presidency. some. special coverage cartoons. the more people we killed the happier our officers were it got to be like a game like young people to see who could chill the most people and the different ways you could prove maybe peace killed would be i can't you know appears now if you brought back some of those years you know where we have the most years they would get the most fierce in-tray you should be rich overnight human children and five men around the circle over no compliment for him succeed. same outrage by search for some of the people whom the currently the most of the elite. is easy. to. see. the any kind of a story. illegal you want to

to stay on could be hamas willingness to strike a deal so it, too can stay in power so hamas would strike a deal and other palestinian factions would join them or not as they want. so all of this could perpetuate the regime in the west bank and gaza but none of that would help to shake israel's control of the territory. on the other hand, there may be a real palestinian revolution against the regime claiming their presentations starting from the grassroots movements and perhaps spreading to other unions and as well as palestinian community in exile to revise the plo so they have authentic representation of their aspirations for freedom and self-determination so for the palestinians for the other arab sisters and brothers the outcome will depend on the extent that they are able to stay the course and impose their will. thank you very much. [applause] >> ambassador maksoud? >> fees' point the way for me to say one, that we are at this moment of history at the palestine center, palestine remains the center. and in that sense, i would now try to disabuse some people about the trust of these m

because of, run by hamas, exist in a state of war with israel -- gaza. israel and forces district blockade. to me, it looks like a siege. the economy of gaza has collapsed. levels of poverty, malnutrition, and unemployment are falling. i visit the hospital supported by save the children. the israelis say they allow essential supplies through, but still, this is a center for malnutrition. i'm able to talk freely with the mothers and doctors. >> we are fighting anemia, rickets, malnutrition. >> at the school in gaza city, it is only too clear that the children remember vividly what happened when the israelis attacked. they saw relatives died. they cowered in their houses. they hate what the israeli soldiers have done. this will be the real test. what do the children of god as a feel about peace -- what did the children of gaza feel about peace? what do you feel about israeli children? >> it is the israelis during the blockade. they want rights for the children, but they do not want palestinian children to have rights. >> if you had israeli children here an

the hamas movement has shown the first signs of nervousness. there were attempts to go onto the streetin the gaza strip as well, but hamas told the population they should not do that. they forbade it. >> hamas is stuck in the middle from an economic standpoint. what do we know about the reaction there? >> the economic situation is a catastrophe, but this has nothing to do with egypt. this is the immediate result of the israeli blockade of the gaza strip. the gaza strip is now prison if you want to look at it this way. there is a very bleak future for people living there. they hope for a change as well. >> assuming that mubarak does leave -- he has been a stabilizer in the peace process. what effect will his removal have? >> there will be a rough road ahead for the israelis. a new government, any new government, will not be such a staunch, unconditional friend of israel. we will hear more different than it did tons from within a new at egyptian -- more differentiated tones from within a new egyptian government. >> after 30 years in power, presid

hamas immediately rejected the proposal. today, the president seemed to back track. >> parliamentary elections only in the west bank are not acceptable. they have to include the west bank and gaza. without this, we will not go ahead. >> his words will frustrate many people here. >> these are by far the biggest demonstrations we have seen on the west bank in two weeks. thousands of people are gathering, people seemingly emboldened by events across the region. >> the deposed president of tunisia, ben ali, is said to be in grave condition. he suffered a stroke and slipped into a, two days ago. he fled to saudi arabia after the popular uprising ended his 23 year grip on power. two horses who died suddenly at a race course in britain or electrocuted. they died from heart attacks. the investigation has laid the blame on cables buried near the grass. a horse nearby survived because it was on a rubberized walkway. president and michelle obama will be making an official state visit, the first since president bush came in 2003. they a

on the strip, hamas is in power. they are airing their frustrations. >> we want unity between the palestinian factions and our main demand is to speak with one voice. >> today, we want to end the divide. we are with all of the arab voices in the region. we want unity. [gunfire] >> the split, often violent, occurred after the palestinian elections five years ago. the weekend, president abbass announced the elections to be held later this year. how must urgently rejected the project hamas -- hamas took it back. >> the president's words will frustrate many people here. these were by far the biggest demonstrations seen on the west bank and the last two weeks, perhaps over two thousand people gathering in the main square in menoramenarah. >> the deposed tunisian president is said to be in grave condition in a saudi hospital just a month after he was forced out of office. it is reported he suffered a stroke and slipped into a, two days ago appeared he and his family fled to saudi arabia as to new zia's -- as tunisia posted

of got hamas to the south, hezbollah, and the king of jordan is in trouble. >> i don't know that their isolation is significantly worse than it was before. and i think that israeli leadership has been playing this pretty well. they were nervous at first and now seem to be understanding that this is okay, that they're going to survive and maybe everybody can ride this out. point is, we're not going to be able to control these forces, so celebrate the democratic uprising and then try -- >> i don't think i'll celebrate until i see how this plays out. >> israel is waiting to see how it comes out. but we riding the wrong pony into tunisia which is the first to blow now they're experiencing turmoil, people are moving trying to get into italy and the island off the coast of utley, which is italian. >> six thousand left the country. that's a real possibility. >> so the sequel to what we see. >> it's unfolding, john. >> and the relief in particularly in the economy that these countries hope -- >> this is the point, john. one is they are, they are fleeing tunisia and frighten to death. >> right.

sending rockets to hamas and hamas is sending the rockets on the heads of my jewish relatives and as you know i don't like that they are funding thirteen million dollars they're paying every week to his brother in lebanon a maybe they say steady maybe fifty of them know so hizbullah is a in effect a guerilla terrorist kind of organization as well as a political organization. and they're actively doing terrorism there are states supporting terrorism therefore they are disturbing element in the middle east and therefore i believe that even if their government was popular they would be our enemies. as it happens the government is unpopular but iran is still a sore point what do you suggest could be done because while sanctions could hire people on the government the sanctions are symbolic measure i. there are some few things that could be done will be useful for example. there are measures the europeans could take very cheaply measures that would really create a problem for iran for every day iran air is flying to italy to frankfurt to rome and with these flights they are bringing some

do you see any potential for hamas joining the plo under the current situation? my second concern is israel, when the revolution was going on in egypt, one of the israeli government's spokespersons said israel is not interested in the regina change in egypt. >> first of all, when the plo was conceived, it was an organization of palestinian people. it was to assert an identity for the right of refugees to return and liberate. it was called the palestinian liberation organization which meant it was the framework of palestinian people. of course, hamas at that time was not present early on until 1987. the plo is to be represented. it is not representative of all the palestinian people. the advocacy of having to restore palestinian national unity is that hamas has to be included in the framework of the palestinian liberation organization. it cannot be an alternative or excluded. this is going to be a catalyst movement within the palestinian organizational structure. the second question is, of course, israel considers stability. they believe it should be stagnated aro

we can call that hama ston and the one in what i called you did and some area which would probably be fucked off the land but that's their democracy i would prefer as i asked before is there any other country in the middle east where jews who have been resident or worried. we're members of the parliament is a very very few if at all in israel we have a very strong democracy with arabs voting in our was being elected members of the interview including. you out of two of the we don't say i'm going i was going to be able to you know i mean it seems to be this is not seems to me this is really. me you see and this is really easy to see. these gentlemen gentlemen please come on please. if i could this is the canal if i could just say some go ahead please it's just seems to me it just seems to me that israel is largely focused here on cliches from a stunt. whatever that may be the reality is how mass was elected democratically by the palestinian people democracy dictates that we need to respect the right of the majority to make their choices it's not your choice israel to come and visit me

what are your thoughts about hamas? >> the majority would not support it, i think, but i can give another argument for why it we should follow your idea, which i think is very positive. if you look back to the history of israel and its relationships with the arab state, as a student of the middle east, you see that whenever the israelis and arabs negotiated directly, they could not solve the problem because of these basic assumptions that the conflict is a zero sum game. if i lose, you win. you need a third partner to change the structure of the game. look at the israeli-egypt agreement. the issue was peace for territory. the egyptians lost piece. it was something i had to give to the israelis. but they gain territory. the israelis got peace, but lost territory. but it was beyond that, because the u.s. was a partner. both parties could gain more than these things. both egypt and israel got a huge amount of military and economic support, $3 billion for 30 years. a third party -- and it only can be the united states, and

that's the same percentage we were told hamas would get in gaza. guess what? they got 70% of the vote. tread very carefully here. >> threat me clear this up before we go. who is in still in charge? >> omar suleiman >> egyptians are not ready for democracy. the culture of democracy is -- >> still the vice president, okay? [audio not understandable] >> is the army running is it? >> it's certainly a combination of the army and suleiman. suleiman and after all heads up all their secret police, all their intelligence operations. it's been a key figure in israel -- excuse me, in egypt -- >> have the c.i.a. over there. >> yes, but much broader than. that the c.i.a. does not operate domestically in the united states. it does that kind of intelligence service does operate domestically in egypt. and he was a key player and the one that as you saw, that mubarak had confidence in, and frankly so does the military. he is a very shrewd, very tough- minded guy, and we'll see what happens. nobody knows what happened with the military. it's clear that he is not that far away f

the hamas movement has shown the first signs of nervousness. there were attempts to go onto the streets in the gaza strip as well, but hamas told the population they should not do that. they forbade it. >> hamas is stuck in the middle from an economic standpoint. what do we know about the reaction there? >> the economic situation is a catastrophe, but this has nothing to do with egypt. this is the immediate result of the israeli blockade of the gaza strip. the gaza strip is now prison if you want to look at it this way. there is a very bleak future for people living there. they hope for a change as well. >> assuming that mubarak does leave -- he has been a stabilizer in the peace process. what effect will his removal have? >> there will be a rough road ahead for the israelis. a new government, any new government, will not be such a staunch, unconditional friend of israel. we will hear more different than it did tons from within a new at egyptian -- more differentiated tones from within a new egyptian government. >> after 30 years in power, pres

hezbollah is a terrorist group that clearly h ties to iraq as as hamas and the others. our concern is that ron -- iran could impt the stability of that region. hezbollah is ll armed. it has exercised its eerie -- experience on what is happened in the 11 non -- in lebanon. this is a way we have not seen as much in the past. we think they are exercising greater influence today. they do have weapons that can impact in otherreas in that region. it did a group that we pay a lot of attention to. -- it is a group that we pay a lot of attention to. you have identified the group's that -- groups that the intelligence community has to pay attention to. >> the only thing i would add is that i think hamas is the one that is most immediately affected anby a ditch imprisons. -- by egyptian prisons. we can talk more about that in closed sessions. >> this may not be wise for this session, but i would appreciate getting more information on your assessment as to the number of rocket and capabilities of hezbollah as well as the ground troops assessment. thank you. i yield back. >> thank y

apparently subvert the propaganda one too they are paying everyday hamas. rockets to have them. and hamas is sending rockets on the heads of my jewish relatives or no i don't think that they are funding thirty billion dollars. every week to his brother in lebanon or maybe they say maybe it's fifty years ago so his body is a in effect a terrorist kind of organization as well as a political organization of course and they're actively doing terrorist. states supporting terrorists therefore they are disturbing element in the middle east and therefore i believe that even if their government was popular they will be . as it happens the government is unpopular but they are only still a sore point what do you suggest could be done because what sanctions could only know people not the government sanctions are symbolic measure. but there are so few things that could be found would be useful for example. benchers europeans are very cheap with lives they would really create a market for the rat for every day the rabbit ear is flying to italy to front for the groom and with these flights bri

and you also have the division between hamas and -- >> hamas. no. it's a stalemate, it looks very grim. and what i'm suggesting should happen probably won't happen tomorrow. but i'm quite confident that it will some day. now it's true, it seems naive. but, you know, 250,000 israelis have signed the initiative. citizens initiative as it's called and a slightly fewer number of palestinians have. and if you go to the israelis always complain that they have no partners. no reasonable people to deal with. but -- and hamas is, you know, major problem. the palestinians have, you know, -- there are reasonable people in the west bank. and intellectuals are an example. but there are also politicians who would be willing to go along with the plan. i'm also quite confident from polling datas if such a plan was put to a referendum in israel and in the palestine-occupied territories, even in gaza, you would find a majority willing to reluctantly grind their teeth perhaps vote for this. and so that -- i think that's t- that gives it hope. unfortunately, the leader

whether you guy fatah and hamas going to have to somehow come to some kind of agreement and then deal with the israeli government with a popular mandate because the palestine papers certainly don't does not show a popular mandate representing the palestinian people when they palestinian negotiators deal with israel. sure let me let me just begin by saying in regards to the israeli egyptian peace treaty that when that was signed yasser arafat when he was in beirut at the time. stated that you know they can sign whatever they want to force peace will not last and here we are today realizing that agreements made with dictators that do not necessarily represent the will of the people of the countries which they rule will not last and we are perhaps at the brink of having to rethink completely how. israeli relations will be. the palestinians are in a very similar situation with the division within palestinian society and unless as as you mentioned they have a truly representative leadership they will not be able to come to a an agreement with the israelis or achieve their own national libe

that the with stevie if it planes democracy will bring some people like the muslim brotherhood or hamas in palestine and democrats are elected they pretty fair dictatorship and shimon peres said that and this is silly policy if you like democracy for yourself you should like it for others as well and we need freedom we have muslim brothers we need freedom we need equality we need justice and that that will bring a democratically an elected member rigged elections in egypt it shows it company views whoever comes to rule whoever come to the parliament since it is a free will of the people we as muslim brothers would respect it and accept it but the uncertainty to that your friend in israel who said. the fundamentalist government in iran they are processing a nuclear power why israel is bruising a nuclear power montezuma rights if you don't bother to do that why are you doing it yourself ok and why do it is they listen to me listen let me completely out of the idea and jump in jump around you want to jump in on that like to ask israel to respond go ahead. ok two quick points here in real d

to the way that they have been treated with or by the west or by israel how mass is let's say that hamas is in the process of being even more radical what explains that except the siege on gaza and the way the palestinian democracy has been cheated or mistreated the same goes to iran this him goes to they've been on and the same will happen in egypt if we do not put our act together and embrace egyptian democracy the radicalization of this is a delusion is not going to be are any good fruits to anybody not in the region or beyond it so i think it is essential that we do not commit the same mistake that we have done in the past and understand that this is real democracy and don't jump the gun and and create enemies in egypt and elsewhere just because we are afraid of the iranian model or whatever model that israel is always obsessed with israel you know a lot of people in western media seem to be supporting. the recently appointed vice president but i mean most people that i've come across and basically called him the egypt's torturing chief i mean why in the world would western powers af

government's decision to hold presidential and legislative elections in the west bank by september hamas which controls the gaza strip has rejected the call for a referendum elections planned for january two thousand and ten were perspired and after it was assumed hamas would undermine anybody. a radical muslim cleric has been indicted on fresh terrorism charges that his trial in indonesia. is accused of planning and inciting terror acts and helping set up and fund an islamic scuse me militant training camp that was convicted of conspiracy in the two thousand and two bali bombings which killed over two hundred people but the sentence was later overturned on appeal if convicted of the latest charges he could face the death penalty. but a work of art has been removed from an exhibition in washington d.c. after the government intervened the gallery received threats of funds withdraw which saw the controversial work move to a makeshift venue on a nearby street but it's all too easy christine for example reports this isn't the first time u.s. officials of sense of the. it's a glimpse at life

that is how you beat hamas. part of this security understanding is how you disarm or in some other fashion coopt hamas from causing the problem it will be likely to cause. some would point to statements that hamas has made that said they would abide by a democratically conceived decision by the palestinian people. i don't rely on that but that would not be correct not to point that out. >> i would like to hear dr. yoram peri's response. how do think the israeli government would respond to what obama should do? what are your thoughts about hamas? the majority of the people would not support it but i can give you an argument why you should follow this idea. i think it is very positive. if you look back at the history of israel and its relations with arab states and do this from students of the middle east -- you will see whenever the israelis and arabs negotiate directly they could not solve the problem because of this perception that the cost is a zero sum game. if you win, i lose. you need a third partner to cha

. >> what about item six hamas -- item 6? >> i am fine with will daily for a seat five. >> great.>> mr. cases only qualified for two, three, and fou region -- mr. pitts is only qualified for two, three, and four. >> i do work with another organization. i am not sure i can get a letter from them, but it is possible i can ask a. >> i would like to continue. it seems there is a lot of incompleteness. if we could make decisions, that would be my preference. >> there is no motion for two and five. >> we can continue to next week's special meeting, and anybody who has not had a letter, if them in. you have got to get your letters in by monday. >> without objection, we will continue this item. is there a deadline on this? to the call of the chair. thank you very much. will you please call the next item? >> items 4 through 8 regard existing legislation. would you like to adopt a motion to move into closed session? >> yes. before we move on, is there any public comment on closed session bowman -- on closed session? we have a motion to move into closed session without objection. thank you s

they have ties to hezbollah in lebanon and also to hamas whose headquarters are in, are in syria and damascus but who also have ties with gaza, they control gaza. i think that the muslim brother hood are not anything to be afraid of in the upcoming political situation or evolution that i see as most likely because they will be subsumed in the overwhelming demonstration of desire for freedom and true democracy. and i would say a secular or nonreligious government that we saw in the demonstrations in the last three weeks. and although the muslim brotherhood might put together a party, public opinion polls that i have seen show that only about 15% of egyptians would support the muslim brotherhood. so they'll be one of many parties to run, and i don't think there's any likelihood at all of them prevailing and establishing sharia or islamic law that would prevent the demonstrators' desire for peace and freedom to be realized. >> there's clearly been a domino effect in the middle east, principally through social media. i'm wondering, what should the u.s.' role be now? how do we balance our

the good relations they've cultivated with hamas and iran. they've nearly come to the brink of war with israel. syria, they've exchanged a few rare birds, there's a rare bird exchange. the arab countries in between israel and iran are going nuts. there's a lot of enthusiasm aboutered wanna among the most radical members of these populations, but at the leadership level they're thinking, what are we going to do? maybe iranians -- am ambassador saying, please, would someone do something about this iranian problem? you've got good financial relationships with the saudis in the long term. if you have a nuclear iran, you are reduced to a persian satellite state which is a position the turks have been trying to avoid or the ottoman empire's been trying to avoid for nearly a thousand years. it's not in turkey's strategic interests. it doesn't make sense. that's the way the akp is selling it. but any long-term, ration algae yo political analysis, not in turkey's interests. it's not. it's in turkey's interest to become part of the e.u., and right now

they declared hamas a terrorist organization and started fighting against it. and then the same we need to give the vehicle a chance to determine their future and themselves. that there was more than we need to give them an opportunity to take a natural weight without any or foreign interference to build their future of those in the. good people should progress to towards democratic institutions. toward sweeting self-regulated. if that is not in practice of peace on internal processes so should the law here in the where we are knowledge russell's it's a wonderful country and i see you know and years now that the people in russia know a lot about what this country should be praised it's important. and i have been a critic of there is no central government actually would i remember when we had our democratic elections in am certain republican in north caucuses for who would actually put in each school principal it was based on the f. to be principal and eventually. this side that won. it was the one that had more votes which the same night of them were the same s

but you're only supporting you are you if you're going to labor unions of hamas sometimes yes ok but are labor unions the fundamental problem that needs to go right now you don't think that perhaps i mean right if you go after the worker couldn't cause even more social political economic and rest how is it not to work there are these are public. their employees their employees their workers but they're also strip mining budgets of states across the nation the reason we're going up there going longer is because of all the obligations to the unions and again the taxpayer wasn't in the room you elected officials one of the get reelected so they sold out to these public sector unions for salaries and benefits way beyond any reasonable rational rational estimation and as a result all these governments are going on there and we the unless there's a taxpayer represented in the room there should not be public and i can live you finish it off them and then we have to wrap it up so what do you think i mean you know i'm serious here do you think that something like this is going to cause more o

has played an incredibly hypocritical role viz a viz this idea of democracy you know we we feared hamas winning what we're essentially democratic elections and the united states so fears the muslim muslim brotherhood perhaps winning you know that it's that it wouldn't support that but i don't think that the muslim brotherhood has a chance of winning the presidency for example it's becoming very clear that it seems like the u.s. officials don't really know where to stand on this one we've seen hillary clinton secretary of state change her stance to ation their developed brok obama waited quite a long time if you ask me to even come out and say anything so i mean we compare this to the response you know coming from israel from the israeli media we hear. israeli officials saying that they are just shocked by the betrayal coming from the u.s. towards. you know how does the u.s. figure the situation out here are we supposed to choose our interests or are we supposed to keep going by those principles of democracy which we fundamentally support little the u.s. is the u.s. is doing what it has

christians in gaza isn't easy, but under hamas, a muslim brotherhood off shoot. their situation hassing worsened. churches, christian bookstores attacked. further south in sudan, national islamic front which took power in 1983 was another off shoot of the muslim brotherhood . the government waged a war, several wars one against west, also a north/south conflict. have many christians in the south. two million people died in those conflicts in sudan. probably the majority are christians. the examples we have, though they are very different sofrts of countries and territories. examples we have so far of whether muslim brotherhood off shoots have come to power, results are terrible for christians. one reason for the fear. the hope and fear of christians in egypt. >> last question: we have been focussing on the muslim brotherhood. absent from all of that, dialogue on the international scene, christians make up 10 percent of the population in the country, who is speaking out and do you think they are playing any role in any future government? >> firstly, very few peopl

the international group hamas -- excuse me, human rights watch estimates that a death toll has topped 300. al jazeera reported on wednesday that a group of army officers in the town of nisrata some 200 kilometers east of tripoli have expressed support for the protesters. gadhafi on tuesday night called on his supporters to take to the streets, less than 1,000 turned up at the main square in central tripoli on against. a rift is widening within the government after security minister abdul fatah al aabaydi. >>> u.s. president barack obama condemned the violence in libya and studying a range of options to intensify the pressure on colonel gadhafi. >> the suffering and bloodshed is outrageous and it is unacceptable. so are threats and orders to shoot peaceful protesters, and further punish the people of libya. these actions violate international norms and every standard of common decency. this violence must stop. >> obama said he was considering actions including sanctions and a freezing of overseas assets that the united states could take unilaterally or with its allies. the president sa

they remember 2006 with hamas. so there is a certain degree of pragmatism here about what they are willing to do. i'll just say one more thing on that. the brotherhood's focus now is going to be rebilling their organization. they have been repress increasingly the last seven years. thepped to get their message out. they are not interested in power just yet. maybe down the road they will be more. i think they have a more specific focus in the short run. >> let me -- i'm going to bring back couple of realtime items. first of all, martin, israel. just describe what's happening there, the level of anxiety. we've heard very little from prime minister netanyahu. >> believe it or not, today, in israel, they are totally preoccupied with a fight between the defense minister and the chief of staff about who is going to take over as chief of staff. so chi vow burning but they are having a little argument about who is going to be in what chair, believe it or not. -- cairo is burning right now. they are deeply concerned about w

that is how you beat hamas. part of this security understanding is how you disarm or in some other fashion coopt hamas from causing the problem it will be likely to cause. some would point to statements that ham has made that said they would abide by a democratically conceived decision by the palestinian people. i don't rely on that but that would not be correct not to int that out. >> i would like to hear dr. yoram peri's response. how do think the israeli government would respond t what obama should do? what are your though about hamas? the majority of t people would not suppor it but i can give you an argument why you suld follow this idea. i think it is very positive. if you look back at the history of israel and its relations with arab states and do this from students of the middle east -- you will see whenever the israelisnd arabs negotiate directly they could not solve the problem because of this perception that the cost is a zero sum game. if you win, i lose. you need a third partner to chge the structur