he's also host of the -- podcast -- also with us his harry litman -- former assistant deputy attorney general. he is a senior legal affairs communist columnist for the los angeles times. and harry, what do you make by way of what we are getting in terms of specificity on the target letter, in these three possible areas of a possible indictment of donald trump by the january 6th grand jury that jack smith has empaneled? >> so, first, i am ready to call it an indictment, a -- indictment. target letters with, as night follows day, or followed by indictments. secondly, in terms of the charges two of them are quite well vetted end and what we expected. so, the defrauding of the united states almost certainly refers to the false electors scheme and the attempt, as you were just mentioning in michigan, to impose an alternate -- that his to say -- a phony baloney set of false electors. and the obstruction almost certainly refers to trying to get pence to delay, otherwise move things to the state legislatures. those things, we expected. now, we might have expected some kind of insurrection cha

former prosecutors, elliott williams and harry litman, thank you, let me start with you harry.orting about how intensely jack smith is looking at this meeting, what kind of potential charges, if there are charges that come with the meeting, we don't know if there will be but if there are, what is your guess what it would be, conspiracy, obstruction, what do you think? >> yes and yes, but interesting he's focused on it, we know he is even recently. because rudy giuliani comes on bended knee and he can ask them anything and there's a lot of focus and 2 days of eight hour meetings on this meeting. as you say caitlin, what precedes and postdates the meeting are important, what precedes is just storming in unannounced, that's what makes team normal rush in, then we have six hours of screaming, over theories that actually they don't implement, martial law, to get the machines or making sydney powell these special counsel, but then after is when trump goes and does his infamous tweet, it is going to be wild, about january 6, two things you can say about the meeting, first is that trum

white house correspondent for "the new york times" joining us, also an msnbc political analyst, harry litman as well, former deputy assistant attorney general and a professor of constitutional law at ucla. i know we're getting some new reporting in now, court back in session. what do we know? >> well, yasmin, this agreement that was the result of a five-year investigation by the u.s. attorney here in delaware was supposed to be on a glide path to conclusion here, the proceedings today an opportunity for the judge to really stress test that agreement, and it appears based on how this day has proceeded there were significant questions still outstanding is and perhaps nonalignment about what could potentially be outstanding. based on the latest information we had, it does appear after a significant breakdown about 90 minutes ago, the u.s. attorney's office here in delaware as well as hunter biden's lawyers are cobbling back together an agreement, a revised agreement that would limit the scope of what hunter biden could still face charges for in the future. remember, this was all supposed to be

tonight harry litman and peter strzok, we appreciate it. coming, up president biden said he wasn't going to declare victory on the economy. my question is, why not? seriously. jobs are, of wages are rising, inflation is tampering, markets are going up. oh, and if you see a conservative uncle of the family cookout you can tell him that what they call bidenomics has been great for his 401k. that's next. those who tried me felt more energy in just two weeks! uuuhhhh... here, i'll take that! woohoo! ensure max protein, 30 grams of protein, 1 gram of sugar. enter the $10,000 powered by protein max challenge. ♪ ♪ why didn't we do this last year? before you were preventing migraine with qulipta®? remember the pain? cancelled plans? the worry? that was then. and look at me now. you'll never truly forget migraine. but qulipta® reduces attacks, making zero-migraine days possible. it's the only pill of its kind that blocks cgrp - and is approved to prevent migraine of any frequency. to help give you that forget-you-get migraine feeling. don't take if

attorney harry litman, and former prosecutor brian jakebs. harry, let me start with you. let's start with carlos de oliveira, the latest person to be caught in this legal web. according to the indictment de oliveira helped move about 30 boxes onto trump's plane but he denied knowledge of the boxes to the fbi. how much trouble could he be in? >> he was already in some trouble then, alisyn. he had several lies. they had him on surveillance footage. he was dead to rights. so they said to him, look, we want you to cooperate here and just tell us what else happened. and if you don't, we're going to charge you with something much more serious, obstruction, conspiracy to obstruct, which they also had him dead to rights on. because after the doj sends its draft subpoena saying we care about the surveillance footage, that's when we goes to employee number 4, aka mr. tavris and says the boss wants this deleted and follows all kind of ham handed plans with him and tunnels and trying to figure out how he can get rid of the surveillance, et cetera. so he was in real hot water and now

harry litman, tell me about the particular exchange,, de oliveira. . . ? it's a cautionary signal. it's legal if they do it right. but there is a guy, and nauta's guy is stanley woodward, and it's been a full employment act for him. he has a reputation of being solid, but we have not simply that trump is paying him and representing so many people, but both walt nauta and now carlos de oliveira, represented by another person, scream out as being people who need to cooperate. they have everything to lose, nothing to gain. by the way, and on the choice of good fellows here, it was perfect. because it's not this kind of somber -- it really is bumbling. oh wow, surveillance footage? how do we go about. it it's a ham-handed campiotti, and they are dead to rights. i'm sure the united states said look, if you will testify just tell the truth about this 24 minute conversation, for example, that we de oliveira had just soon as they found out they wanted surveillance footage they went to taveras, they would be looking at no jail time, no charges at all. they're not so far they are staying loy

and harry litman, let me start with you on this executive privilege mentioned that happened today about this witness, william russell, appearing in the grand jury. he was an aide who was kind of a low level assistant but constantly with the president in the white house. they called him the body man, always there to handle whatever needs to be handled. we see pictures of him very close to trump when he was president. is there anything left they can be talking about involving executive privilege in that grand jury? >> well it's his third time testifying in the bigger point i think, there are some real tea leaves here, is that this guy was also with trump at mar-a-lago. he has been involved in both investigations. they were talking about executive privilege, which we just found out by happenstance means that the testimony was about january six itself. and that intern, to me, suggests that this final charge that has been a bit of a puzzle for us, the first one is the electors, the second is the obstruction focused on pants, that this final charge of 2:41, more likely than not, concerns the

harry litman joins us now. the former deputy assistant general in the department of justice.ya perry served as deputy attorney general for new york state. philip bump is a columnist for "the washington post" where he has written extensively about the various investigations about donald trump. they all join me now. harry, i wonder what you make of this latest development. >> well, look, in a sense, it's cumulative, aalicia. we've known about the pressure campaign to the governors of michigan, to georgia, we lectors in nevada. so it's not a surprise and kind of par for the course for trump. on the other, if you look at it in isolation, it's really troubling for same reasons the others were. the big difference here, no actual audiotape. so if he -- it seems to me smith is right now about the business of taking this sprawling january 6th mountain of cases which really comprise five or six different potential chargeable crimes, and winnowing out perhaps a single charge of the false electors. nevertheless, he is covering the waterfront. so i'm not exactly surprised he hadn't brough

harry litman. just, we just got minutes left on her for donald trump to respond to the grand jury.if he's going to do that. and the special council is scheduling more witness interviews we learned for coming weeks. what does that mean for the timing of an indictment? and is it certain that there will be one if your estimation? >> i'll start there. yes. i can think of once or twice in my whole career a target letter hasn't been followed by an indictment. here, this is not a kind of casual matter. he would be considering it. it is a done deal. there's a model indictment drafted. it's gone off to garland. and the whole draft. it's happening. the witness interviews are one thing. but you can do witness interviews after a grand jury has returned charges. so we don't know that -- i think now, he's ready to go. jack smith is all about speed now and he's worried about the fulton county possible charges. i'm the only they don't know left is if trump wants to take an appeal, a final hearing i think garland will insist he's got to go to jack smith. that's a courtesy you would afford him. othe

attorney harry litman. renel, you were wonderful to join us by phone yesterday.nd after listening to trump and in his own words that he was liable for sexual abuse and defamation. and now that he is no longer shielded by doj, i wonder how you evaluate or sort of analyze his exposure i think what lawyers were calling e. jean carroll 1, this first lawsuit about comments he made while president. >> yes. it's understandable that trump would have gone on the rampage this morning because the decision by the doj yesterday was really pivotal in this case. really key. if it had been found that trump was acting in the scope of his employment, it really would have been a strikeout for e. jean carroll. the government would have been substituted as the litigant here, and you can't sue the federal government for defamation. so it all would have been over. conversely, if the judge, as seems likely, accepts the position of the doj, carroll essentially begins this next trial on third base. that's because there is a doctrine called issue preclusion, which basically says that once

. >> join me once again, harry litman, danya perry, philip bump. hat do you make of her statements that trump showed cost documents at mar-a-lago, harry? >> i think it is really clear and credible. look, it is interesting, alicia, because to actually show documents that are classified are a whole different level under the espionage act. that's the sort of thing -- communication isn't up. you don't have to turn it over, if you actually show it to them. however, the indictment in paragraph six makes a big deal about those two incidents, as you said in new jersey. but they don't charge it. the same thing here. i think it is quite possible that they don't quite have this beyond a reasonable doubt. yet, it's sort of like danya was just saying about the corroboration of what kind of guy he is. whether or not they have the witnesses who can actually say, i saw exactly. this is what it said. it shows his absolute indifference to the national interest, his willingness to do it. that is a fair game for the u.s. to use. from the indictment, we know that they a

. >> former federal prosecutors kristy greenberg and harry litman, thank you both for starting off our discussion tonight. >> thanks. thanks, kristy. >> coming, up another former federal prosecutor, senator sheldon whitehouse and his long, lonely crusade on supreme court ethics finally came to a vote today in the senate judiciary committee and ethics one, even though every republican senator voted for no ethics on the supreme court. senator sheldon whitehouse joins us, next. joins us, next my a1c was up here; now, it's down with rybelsus®. his a1c? it's down with rybelsus®. my doctor told me rybelsus® lowered a1c better than a leading branded pill and that people taking rybelsus® lost more weight. i got to my a1c goal and lost some weight too. rybelsus® isn't for people with type 1 diabetes. don't take rybelsus® if you or your family ever had medullary thyroid cancer, or have multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2, or if allergic to it. stop rybelsus® and get medical help right away if you get a lump or swelling in your neck, severe stomach pain, or an allergic reaction. serious

we want to bring in harry litman, former u.s. attorney and deputy assistant attorney general. what do you think about this date, harry? >> you know, i think it's playing as kind of a compromise, and in particular there's a notion that doj dodged a bullet by their not taking trump's position of making it after the election. i don't think that bullet was ever real. so look, there are complications here, but she's i think given him about as much leeway as she could reasonably have. it's almost a year out of the box from the indictment. and there's many opportunities t that will come especially in the classified procedure realm. i'm sure the trump team is planning on it. we are by no means looking at an assured trial at the date that she has set. >> harry, i want to play a clip from an interview trump did with iowa radio station earlier this week. listen to this. >> i thinkt's a very dangerous thing to even talk about. because we have a tremendously passionate group of voters, and i mean maybeyou know, maybe 100, 150, i've never seen anything like it. much more passion than they ha

attorney and former deputy assistant attorney general harry litman is here. er. former senator claire mccaskill is back with us, and andrew weissmann is still was. harry, let me start with you. your thoughts today on some of what folks like yourself and andrew see in the tea leaves or the subtle movements that a normal civilian may not. >> they're not so subtle anymore. we've really been expecting it to happen, but now it's quite real. i think everything that needed to happen before the indictment issues now has happened. and it is one day? is it two days? is it three days? by tuesday, we'll know the nature of the charges. and as you say, it's just a seismic event. we look so carefully in such a granular way week in and week out. but then you take a step back and understand that the federal government is charging a former president with the most treacherous act in opposition of democracy rule of law and the sacrosanct principle of peaceful transfer of power in our history. it's a monumental event in and of itself. and then of course given that it will come in

attorney harry litman, he is a legal affairs columnist for the l.a. times and host of a podcast. and luke broadwater, congressional reporter for the new york times. it is good to see you all. harry, we have a date to circle on the calendar, at least for now, may 20th 20 2024, for the start of the special counsel's documents case. what do you make of the date judge cannon picked this week? >> alicia, we need a date, but with an eraser on it and a white board. because that's -- i'm not surprised she said it then, but we know it's just an overture for trump to start pushing, because that's in particular when they'll really be at the end of that period, all kinds of litigation over the calls sulfide procedures, part of the case. the classified documents. and that's the one thing that's challenging and could take up time. so really, he's starting almost a year out of the box, and he's got six months to go. i'm sure that's how he's looking at it, and he'll have some cards to play, especially with the classified documents. >> what do you mean by cards to play? >> the classified documents

harry litman served as assistant attorney general or department of justice and is now a legal affairs columnist for the los angeles times. trey vance is a professor at the university of alabama law school. both have been explaining all of these legal ups and downs for us for many days. i wanted to ask both of you, and harry, i will start with you, for your reaction to the news of the superseding indictment, and what really stuck out to you as you read through it. >> the superseding indictment, i would say two things struck out. one, it's a whole new scheme with nauta and de oliveira, and it's very ham-handed. they really look like to get criminals as opposed to anything more sophisticated. that's one. but to, the really big thing is, de oliveira was just tailor made to be a cooperating witness. he has everything to lose. they came at him hard. i think what it shows is, jack smith does not bluff. there are some downsides to him to bringing it now. i think they came to him and said look, we've got to with all of these false statements, we've got you making these other obstructive acts,

attorney, harry litman and former district attorney of manhattan catherine christian. don't get rid of surveillance tapes if you didn't do anything wrong. what is the most damning of the new charges? >> i think that the additional count of illegal retention of national defense information, count 32, is in some ways the most important in that the bedminster tape that we all knew about and that you referenced, andrea, is now not just described in the indictment, but in this new superseing indictment, that is the actual charge, meaning that the government now has a tape recording of the former president admitting the fact he had this document and that it was classified. he says, it is secret and that he could have declassified it if he was still the president but cannot. every prosecutor would love to have a tape recording of the defendant on tape admitting to the crime. that is what the government now has with this new superseding indictment. it's not just other crimes evidence, background evidence, it's actually the -- it's forming a separate count. then, of course, as

. >> and harry litman, georgia is moving steadily towards the first two weeks of august which was the indication fani willis gave a while ago as the likely indictments there of course what's emerging at this point is what we thought all along which is an indictment of a least indictment a dozen people that's what the grand jury foreperson said and even more powerful set of indictments when they come out. >> it's going to be back. the question is, will it be anonymous. if that article that you read, lawrence, is to be accredited, it was just as with the jacks mitt charge. there was a really notable omission. jack smith, i turned, out didn't do insurrection. fani willis, people have been talking about, will she do rico? rico is as big and sprawling as it gets. it also can be confusing to juries. it is hard to bring home. i think she may have taken a page from jack smith spoke and streamlined a bit. at least that is what the guardian article might suggest. that is the first thing i will be looking for. my money, as a prosecutor, maybe cristobal agree, you learn more and more simple windo

. >> peter baker, geoff bennett, and harry litman. good to see you in person.nother story out of the white house, the secret service announced that it is closing the investigation into who brought a bag of cocaine inside of the white house. without any leads or suspects. nbc's kelly o'donnell catches is>> tonight's, the secret service coming up empty. after days of investigation, and sophisticated forensic testing, officials cannot identify who left a small bag of cocaine in a storage kobe used for electronic devices, near this west wing entrance. house speaker kevin mccarthy, raising doubts. >> if they can't tell us who brought it, what else is happening in the white house that they can tell us about? what else is coming into the white house that they can tell me about? that concerns me more now. >> lab tests, conducted at the fbi crime lab did not develop latent fingerprints and insufficient dna was present, for investigative comparisons, investigators say they use video and entered zogg to compile a list of 500 individuals who had access to the entrance of t

joining me is nbc's justice correspondent, ken dilanian and harry litman.is is a sprawling investigation. we outlined some of who they have talked to. do we have any sense of how much work remains to be done here? >> not entirely but it feels like they're getting close to the end here. we shorthand this as the january 6th investigation but really, smith was tasked with investigating any potential violations of law thaes the ladies and gentlemen of the order. and what he appears to be doing here is investigating what looks like from the way they look at it, a conspiracy to disrupt the lawful transfer of power not only with the january 6th attack but with the scheme to have false electors to raise money around that. the list ranges from mike pence to secret service agents to state officials. >> newt gingrich was one of them apparently. >> it's a really far reaching investigation. remains to be seen what they do with it but they're pursuing this case. >> i'm trying to develop the january 6th language from anytime we report on this. the special counsel is focus

. >> from your lips, harry litman.ts. >>> after the break for us, a member of the kennedy family has called rfk jr.'s presidential run "an embarrassment and vanity project." we'll bring you the latest, next. project. we'll bring you the latest, next only at vanguard, you're more than just an investor, you're an owner. our financial planning tools and advice can help you prepare for today's longer retirement. hi mom. that's the value of ownership. first, there's an idea and you do something about it for the first time with godaddy. then before you know it, (it is a life changer...) you make your first sale. small business first. never stopped coming. (we did it!) and you have a partner that always puts you first way. (no way!) start today at godaddy.com. and there he is. chaz. the rec league's self-crowned pickleball king. do you just bow down? no you de-thrown the king. pedialyte. 3x the electrolytes. when i first learned about my dupuytren's contracture, my physician referred me to a hand specialist. and i'm glad he d

attorney and former deputy assistant attorney general harry litman and claire mccaskill is with us andkie aelmany and mar a gay. it is great to have you all of you with. and jackie, i'll start with you. and let's hone in on this period. we played the january 6 interviews an the participants of that meeting at white house. listen to how those witnesses described the tone and tenure of that meeting. >> i think that it got to the point where the screaming was completely -- completely out there. i mean you have people walking in and it was late at night and it had been a long day and what they were proposing i though you the was nuts. >> i'm going to categorically describe it as you guys are not tough enough. or maybe i put it another way. you're a bunch of [ bleep ]. excuse the expression. but i'm almost certain the word was used. >> they screamed at me that i'm a quitter and kept standing up and turning around and screaming at me and at a certain point i had it with him and i yelled back. either come over or sit your f'ing ass back down. >> this is the legal team fighting itself. to what

harry litman, thank you so much. claire mccaskill, thank you as well. charlie, please stick around. later on in this hour. up next for us, the fulton county, georgia d.a. signaling her team is ready to go. what that means in yet another possible indictment for the ex-president. a very short break. "deadline: white house" returns in just a moment. rns in just a moment choosing a treatment for your chronic migraine - 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting 4 hours or more - can be overwhelming. so, ask your doctor about botox®. botox® prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine before they even start. it's the #1 prescribed branded chronic migraine treatment. so far, more than 5 million botox® treatments have been given to over eight hundred and fifty thousand chronic migraine patients. effects of botox® may spread hours to weeks after injection causing serious symptoms. alert your doctor right away, as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems, or muscle weakness can be signs of a life-threatening condition. side effects may include allergic reactions, ne

litman, he's a legal affairs colonist for the l.a. times and a host of a podcast. it is good to see you all. harrywe have a date to circle on the calendar, at least for now. may 20th 2024 for the start of the special counsel documents case. what do you make of the g8 judge cannon picked this week? >> alicia, we need a date with an eraser on its and a white board. that's -- i'm not surprised he set it then, but we know it's just an overture for trump to start pushing, because that in particular is when they'll really be at the end of that period, all kinds of litigation over the classified procedures, part of the case. the classified documents. and that's the one thing that's challenging and could take up time. so really, he starts almost a year out of the box, and he's got six months to go. i'm sure that's how he's looking at it, and still have some cards to play, especially with the classified documents. >> what do you mean by cards to play? >> the classified documents, he's got a lot of things he'll bring. most of them are really merit-less. but when it comes to classified documents, there's a p