related to departure from us also oleksandr pavlichenko executive director of the ukrainian helsinki union for human rights p oleksandra how, please, do human rights defenders treat those who left in different ways, those who were conscripted but left in different ways, a-a, someone hiding somewhere under the seat, someone bypassing the system , pretending to be a pseudo-volunteer in different ways, someone is a money changer, somewhere crossing the border a few kilometers from the checkpoint, actually, what about them , right now, what is the position of human rights defenders regarding such actions of such people, well, oleksandr, if you can you hear us, please, microphone because we see you, but we don't hear you, oh, there is a connection, yes, mr. oleksandr, the sensors, the video is gone, now the video is gone, let's take a moment , let's get to the topic of actually people who leave and are looking for this. different men are looking for different ways we will return in general, of course, the big problem is still the number of refugees who left the territory of ukraine, we talked literally in the p

pavlichenko, executive director of ukrainian helsinki human rights union was also with us gennadiy dubov , candidate of legal sciences, we are extremely grateful to you for the conversation . thesis - it is, of course, necessary to work on developing a mechanism for the return of ukrainians abroad right now. however, not only and not only, see, many people look at this problem exclusively, and seeing problems , trying to solve it normatively and administratively, effectively. well, but in reality uh, there are many world practices for when other countries found themselves in similar circumstances. and when citizens of other countries asked around the entire globe and they found in this a-ah advantages for themselves, i will tell you, uh, these are practice, our association of local self-government bodies has worked, we even have a separate project that we presented, you can take the example of israel , you can take the example of israel, you can take it from armenia, you can take it from azerbaijan, you can take it from ireland, where the economic miracle took place, including at the expense of what , at the expense of the fact that ukrainian people not