want the memory of roger stone to come back to haunt him. >> and quickly before we let you go, howard finemanrest of it because you know, the two of them used to be business partners. >> oh, of course i think that's a big part of it. i think roger stone always specialized in putting himself like a spider at the center of the web, and i'm sure he knows a ton about manafort and everybody, every other name that you've heard in the whole story. and that's why he was valuable and that's why he didn't cooperate. >> would he ever turn on donald trump, let's say to write a book, you think? >> that's possible, but not in this situation, because what he had -- the only thing he had was his ability to show the president that he was being loyal down the line. >> yeah. >> where he would never turn, and that's the story as of right now. >> absolutely. well, maybe if he wrote a book, the rnc might buy 300,000 copies of it, make it a best-seller morris o'kelly, howard fineman, thank you so much. that is "the reidout." tomorrow night, i have former homeland security secretary jeh johnson and former wnba star

joining us now is msnbc news analyst howard fineman. he interviewed roger stone on friday. always good to see you, howard. so what happened behind this order? how much was roger stone, i guess, playing puppet master behind the scenes with some people who might have been talking to the president? >> well, i think roger stone didn't need the puppet masters in between, he was always speaking directly to the president, if not actually so, certainly in his public posture and the way he dealt with the prosecutors. roger stone's strategy from the very beginning was to try to prove to the president that he, roger stone, was no rat. that he wasn't going to cooperate, that he was going to try to stone wall and stiff arm prosecutors and investigators and congressional committees as much as he possibly could. he told me that he really hadn't talked directly to the president over the last year, year and a half or more. but he did say, and what i thought was a news worthy throw away, he had talked 29 or 30 times to the president during the time to have campaign. and i think what stone was

those are his words according to howard fineman. but he didn't. that is a clear implication and indication that he has incriminating information about donald trump, and there's an inference there, an implied threat, that if he were to go to prison and serve any of his sentence, that he might have to provide that information to prosecutors in order to reduce his sentence. so why is donald trump doing this four months before the election and not the day after the election? and the only thing that jumps out is what roger stone said today, that he's got incriminating information, and the president is trying to protect himself. >> andrew weissmann, the former mueller deputy, is among those on social media in your circle tonight saying, put roger stone in front of a grand jury. so let me ask you, is there any rule against that? what would that do? and despite his commutation in this case, could roger stone be in further legal jeopardy depending on his performance in front of a grand jury? >> well, the issue that would arise is whether roger stone would

and then this part is in quotation marks from roger stone directly to howard fineman. he knows i was under enormous pressure to turn on him. it would have eased my situation considerably, but i didn't. now, the only way roger stone could have turned on donald trump and eased his situation considerably would be by giving prosecutors criminal information about donald trump. there is nothing else that that can be referring to. and, so, there you have on the day that he gets this commutation from the president roger stone saying to a reporter that he had, in effect, saying to him that he had criminal information on donald trump and he refused to give it to prosecutors, and therefore he deserves the commutation. this takes this case into a place where we have never been before. >> no. and this is -- this is like the case study, like the third grade case study for like how public corruption works. like, yeah, in our republic, in our constitutional republic, the executive in our government has the ability to pardon people and that makes sense for some reasons. but there is a

when you combine that with roger stone's statement yesterday to howard fineman that howard fineman then tweeted out where he quoted roger stone as saying roger stone doesn't want to pardon but a come tarks and then he quotes stone saying, look, trump knows i was under enormous pressure to turn on him, but i didn't. those things in combination, i think, raise a serious argument as to whether this is a corrupt commutation issued by president trump to try to hide, to try to bury incriminating information that roger stone could have presented about him. >> well, glen, let's take a listen to what congressman adam schiff had to say about all this last night on the rachel maddow show. >> what we're seeing today is an appalling overture to people essentially from the president saying if you lie for me, you cover up for me, i will reward you. on the other hand, if you're a rat and you cooperate, then like a mafia boss, i will come after you. >> all right, glen. what do you think? do you think this happened because stone was a friend of the president or he didn't turn on the president like so man

but howard fineman did an interview with roger stone today.araphrasing it but here it is. he says i just had a long talk with roger stone. he says he doesn't want a pardon, which implies guilt, but a commutation, and he thinks trump will give it to him. and then quoting, he knows i was under enormous pressure to turn on him. it would have eased my situation considerably, but i didn't. i mean, he is saying i deserve the pardon because i didn't rat. like, right there, he's coming out and saying it. >> and -- look -- and -- and the corruption of the way the president has used pardons and commutations, in the context of the mueller investigation, is very on the surface. i mean, you know, when -- when michael cohen was still on board, the president dangled pardons in front of him. and kind of both publicly and privately. and when he turned, the president called him a rat and said he deserved a long prison sentence. roger stone and paul manafort, the president praised them both. and, you know, specifically, led them to publicly-made statements that

. >> this is what stone-- howard fineman. >> he know i was under tremendous pressure to turn on him t would have eased my situation considerably but i didn't. >> republican senator mitt romney accuse the president of unprecedented historic corruption. >> this is bribery pure and simple. a quid pro quo. >> the president through this come taition is basically saying if you lied for me, if you cover up for me, if you have my back then i will make sure that you get a get out of jail free card. >> trevor: oh wow. i think trump is going to have to update his campaign chant after this. >> lock him up. unless he's my friend. then set him free. seriously, i love you had trump is the law & order president when it comes to his enemies or marginalized groups being sent to jail, but as soon as it is one of his friends he becomes a prison abolitionist. >> the prison system in this country sowt of control. we got to fix it. roger, get out. all right, problem solved. back to the way it was. and we all see what happened here, right. roger stone lied to protect donald trump and in exchange, trump rewar

and yesterday when we saw the reporting from howard fineman who interviewed roger stone and roger stoneent to commute my sentence and let me quote this sentence from roger stone, he said, "the president knows, i, roger stone, was under enormous pressure to turn on him, it would have eased my situation considerably but i didn't." so that is roger stone basically giving the president an ultimatum. i kept your secrets, i want a commutation of my sentence and if i don't get it, donald trump, maybe i will start talking. this is a corrupt, corrupt act by a corrupt president. >>> so there's a call for an immediate briefing on the commutation of the sentence. they wrote "president donald trump abused the powers of his office in an apparent effort to reward roger stone for his refusal to cooperate with investigators investigating the president's own conduct. no other president hasek xercisd the clemency power for such a patently personal and self-serving purpose." is this or isn't this within the president's power? >> it is within the president's power. what if anything can be done about it? >>

. >> so howard fineman, the nbc analyst, spoke to stone and wrote about the conversation in "the washington this is what stone told him. he knows i was under enormous pressure to turn on him. it would have eased my situation considerably, but i didn't. they wanted me to play judas. i refused. how do you read those comments from stone? >> well, it appears that roger stone was very clear that he had incriminating information as it relates to the president's knowledge of possible coordination between his campaign and wikileaks with roger stone serving as an intermediary. because the president viewed that information either as politically damaging or potentially criminal in nature, roger stone withheld that information and lied to congress as well as to a jury. and so the question is the one that senator leahy asked bill barr during the confirmation of the attorney general. is it lawful for a president to issue a pardon in exchange for a witness declining to provide criminal information? and the attorney general, mr. cover-up artist himself, was very clear. that would be a crime. >> is there a

. >> howard fineman tweeted something very important that has now been -- it's in "the new york times" reporting in this story tonight. and he tweeted this before the announcement came that the president was commuting roger stone's sentence. and howard's tweet says just had a long talk with roger stone. he says he doesn't want a pardon, which implies guilt or commutation and says he thinks trump will give it to him. and then this part is in quotation marks from roger stone

minutes before on friday, journalists told howard fineman reresisted pressure by prosecutors. stone said of this, quote, he knows i was under enormous pressure to turn on him. i didn't. they wanted me to play judas. i refused. here's how adam schiff reacted this weekend. >> the jury of roger stone's peers found him guilty on every charge. and what the president is effectively doing is say iing is okay to lie to congress as long as you lie to protect me. let's not make any mistake about this. donald trump wants to keep roger stone silent. roger stone knows too much about donald trump. that's always the motivation with this president, which is to protect himself, to cover up for himself, nothing else matters. >> likewise chairman jerry nadler says that his committee will investigate whether the comation was granted as a reward for stone's silence and i'm joined now by democratic congressman, ted lew, a member of the house judiciary committee and white house correspondent for pbs news hour. congressman, we just mentioned the committee you serve on, your chairman saying he wants t

morris o'kelly, howard fineman, thank you so much. that is "the reidout." tomorrow night, i have former homeland security secretary jeh johnson and former wnba star renee montgomery, who is sitting out this season to fight for social justice and voting rights "all in with chris hayes" starts right now. >>> tonight on "all in," as coronavirus records break across america, with more than 142,000 americans dead, the president let slip that they never had a plan and still don't >> we are in the process of developing a strategy that's going to be very, very powerful. we've developed as we go along >>> then, beto o'rourke on the covid catastrophe in the rio grande valley and why the texas governor is undermining efforts to stop it >>> plus, the push to get kids back to school, no matter what the risk to them and their families >>> and as the department of homeland security defends itself, i'll talk to a senator proposing a plan to stop federal troops from dropping into cities uninvited. "all in" starts now. good evening from philadelphia i'm ali velshi in for chr