until the irs proves that it can responsibly manage its funds, the irs will not see one more dime in taxpayer funding. we need real reforms, and they must be implemented so the american people can have a restored faith that they have a government that works for them, not against them. that begins with instituting long-term and meaningful changes, changes to both how the agency operates and to the tax code that the agency is trying to enforce. and as i've stated before, i often hear there constituents in michigan about their fear of being audited by the irs. that fear used to stem from the fact that the tax code was so complicated, nobody really knew what was in it or if they had filed their taxes correctly. even when people paid someone else to do their taxes, they'd sign their return not really knowing what was in it and hoping the preparer got it right. and that is something this committee must and will fix. however, today americans fear an audit not just because the tax code is too complex, but because we have an agency that is out of control. we have managers in washington sittin

i know you're new to the irs. you come from the office of management and budget, and you have a great reputation. so you're a budget cruncher. >> be i am. >> how on earth do you think you have the moral authority to ask for this? why would we representing the taxpayers we represent give you all this extra money you are asking for if this is what the irs is doing with hard-earned taxpayer dollars? we're seeing just in two months waste, fraud, abuse and taxpayer targeting, and you're saying give us another billion dollars. why should we do that? >> congressman, you're asking very important questions, and i'd love the opportunity to address them. first, i agree the costs that you're referring to are excessive and in many cases inappropriate and should not have happened. the reports that are coming out that are identifying these are covering events that occurs two and three years ago. and my concern is great. but my concern would be even greater if i saw that those patterns of spending are continuing through today. in

irs scandal. they're taking an attack that it's all a phony thing. it's very real and it was admitted. >> if you want to say it's a phony scandal, ask the people who have been targeted, been singled out for unequal and unfair treatment by the irs. this is not phony, i assure you of that. >>> and tonight, the house oversight committee pushing for an investigation into new, yes, new and more accusations against the irs. this time groups who already have tax exempt status say the irs targeted them. one of those groups is the leadership institute, its communication director abby joins us. >> hi greta. thanks for having me. >> first of all, tell me what your organization is. >> the leadership institute has been training conservatives since 1979. we have more than 120,000 graduates of our program. and that's why we were so surprised in june 2011 when the irs kicked och a 13-month audit into our tax exempt status that cost us more than $50,000 in legal fees and required more than 23,000 pages of paperwor

the irs is systemically broken. i mean, you don't go out there and specifically target conservative groups unless there's something radically, internally, inherently wrong with the agency. and it sounds radical, maybe you do have to start from the beginning. >> again, charlie -- >> wait a minute. they targeted people. >> how many irs agents are there and how many were behaving -- >> they had a whole office. >> how many were behaving like rogues? >> wait a second. they had a directive from the white house. that's basically been proven. >> you don't know that. >> they said it! >> i'm not saying it's obama. that cincinnati office said they had a directive from washington to go after these groups. there's something systemically wrong. >> then punish the people who gave the directive. why punish all the agency? >> then to charlie's point -- >> because it's as inherently flawed. >> to charlie's point, when you have a few rogue people, that means those people aren't being supervi superviseed. >> and they're not- >> charles

werfel no irs irs -- ever recalled such an unprecedented intervention. we need to know why that was. finally, i am not here to attack anyone. i'm here to get to the truth. not a partial or selective truth but the whole truth. i believe that there should be the goal of everyone in this room. we do need to stop making tasteless accusations and we need to get full information and i emphasize full, but the treatment of all businesses, conservatives, liberals and everyone in between and i sincerely hope that we can do that today. without mr. chairman i go back. >> i think the gentleman. all members will have until the end of the day to submit their written statements. and we now welcome our first panel of witnesses, ms. liz hofacre quality assurance and the cincinnati office of the internal revenue service. that is a mouthful for any chairman. and mr. carter hull was a senior tax law specialist at the exempt organizations technical unit in washington d.c. and was with the internal revenue service for an astounding 48 years of service and we want to thank you

to the office of chief counsel at the irs. to mike emanuel in washington. all these pieces are coming together. i. >> carter hull, a 48 year veteran of the irs was a critical witness. he talk about how there had always been standard way of handling these cases at the irs, until there was that meeting with the irs general counsel. check out this exchange. >> i just think it's disgraceful that we're squandering this opportunity to get to the bottom of this because of partisan bickering. one group trying to blame the president. the other one trying to defend themselves that progressives were also being targeted. i think it's very unfortunate. i think the root of this matter is people who were critical of the way this government is being run were being targeted, regardless of what the source of their complaint was, they were being targeted as u.s. citizens by the irs. >> that was lawmaker talking about the partisan bickering going on at the hearing. he lectured both sides, saying it was important to get to the bottom of this. the

what is your title at the irs? >> mr. chairman, i was deputy director of enterprise network and tier systems procurement. >> to whom the report at the gas? >> i respectfully decline to answer any questions and invoke my fifth amendment privilege. >> would you do that once again, i apologize. >> mr. chairman, on the advice of counsel i respectfully decline to answer any questions and invoke my fifth ame privilege to remain silent. >> when did you first become aware of a company known as strong castle? >> mr. chairman, on the advice of counsel i respectfully decline to answer any questions and about my fifth amendment privilege to remain silent. >> are you currently employed by the irs? >> mr. chairman, on the advice of counsel i respectfully decline to answer any questions and invoke my fifth amendment privilege to remain silent. >> lastly, are you prepared to answer any questions here today about your role in the irs acquisitions in information technology products and services from strong castle? >> mr. chairman, no. >> m

hull made clear is that -- >> top of the irs. >> top of the irs. these reviews, additional scrutiny only of these -- tea party and conservative groups was unprecedented. had was -- has been in the irs for decades and never seen anything like it. and it is coming from the chief counsel's office and so -- i think mr. wilkins is the next one to get under oath if he lawyers up and pleads the fifth as miss lerner did, perhaps others in that office can tell us what happened. there's also a lot of document requests from the hill that may shed light on it. >> the tea party group states -- they are still not getting fair treatment by the irs. even now. >> they haven't. let me just say one thing about those hearings this week which was that amazing thing was that democrats and the way they roughed up the witnesseses and roughed up the inspector general, you know, this was -- almost unprecedented. the democrats originally said we want to get to the bottom of this. it became very clear that they -- they treat this as a partisan witch-hunt beating up the inspec

this is the irs. the bureaucrats are good at printing things out on paper, but it is a pathetic joke. i read it cover to cover. they emit problems and then say nobody is to blame. nobody is taking it seriously in the administration. >> i am going to warn you ahead of time. you will notlike what i have to say about this. >> we like it when we don't like what you have to say. >> give me a little room. did you know i was down on the irs for this too? the more we learn about this, the more we are discovering there may have been good reason for targeting these groups. we are now seeing examples where these grps are calling for 401c4 and putting on their application that they had nothing to do with politics and mailing in the application on the same day. they up loaded commercials for the republican senator. >> they are allowed to do 40% work on poll techs stuff. >> you are exactly right. >> if you can name one organization that lied on their tax form i am willing to hear it. >> you wanto hear it? republica

he irs >> yes. --ach is investigated >> these are beyond the lookout, be on the lookout for patriot, be on the lookout for tea party i mean, help me if you can read those soon-to-be political .ositions so the irs is focusing on that. i'm just curious -- >> when i was there in 2010, sir, i was instructed to develop these applications. >>uh-huh. what does that mean? >> means somebody else screamed at them out for whatever reason i was assigned these applications them met the parameters of tea parties. >> ok. why are these people being singled out? >> because the screeners identified they should be screened for this particular reason. >> who is the individual who screened them for you? >> well, it was a whole group. there were several screeners. ok. i have about 20 seconds left. i just think it is disgraceful that we are squandering this opportunity to get to the bottom of this because of partisan bickering. one group trying to blame the president and the other trying to defend themselves the progressi

irs workers decreasing. there is at least one republican who feels kind of a little protective of the irs budget. senator orrin hatch is the highest ranking republican over the senate finance committee which has jurisdiction over the irs. senator hatch bravely ventured this statement to the hill. i would like to do away with the irs by having tax reform that doesn't require that. now, that, of course is the standard republican party line about tax reform that then eliminates the irs, which of course, adults like orrin hatch know will absolutely never happen. and adults like orrin hatch also know that when you want it to happen, it is a very easy way to be a player in washington. but senator hatch then said this about the 24% budget cut. he would be very concerned if that were the amount. that would be pretty steep under the circumstances because they do have a very tough job. and one of of the places where those irs agents do that very tough job is ogden, utah, where the irs is the biggest employer. orrin ha

hull, a 48-year veteran of irs. he continued the link up to both lois lerner's office and indicated one of the two political appointee -- did you get that far? how far have you gotten in tracing it up the line? part of the audit we didn't interview anyone from chief council office. our timeline show it was consulted at some point. >> you can confirm that -- >> we can confirm. >> we are all in an ongoing review how it started, who was responsible. we have miss lerner exercised initially fifth amendment right. we may be call her back. this is an ongoing process. do you think it should be closed down, mr. george? >> not at all. if i may, the moment i was made aware of the fact that other groups were similarly, you know, you know, spotlighted by the irs i directed my staff to commence review of that. however, give the work we're doing with the fbi and with the department of justice we have to hold many of the things we otherwise would be doing allow for the completion of their work or that work. >> you're dotting your i

is pointed at the irs. world are we going to let the irs in your health care records? >> if funding of obamacare is one of the issues, that necessarily brings into question the continued resolution and what to do come the end of september and early october? what are we -- if the republicans and the democrats fight over this, will that mean a government shutdown? because they're interrelated. >> what we're seeing is the president now concede the law is flawed. as i indicated before, last week, the republicans and the house joined by 35 democrats, one vote, 22 on the other, i believe, and said no to these man dates, no to these burdens on working people or employers. because the law is not ready, the law is flawed. the president has already admitted that. so i'm hopeful we can make some progress in a bipartisan way to say, hey, wait a minute, wait a minute. this law is not the way we want to go. >> is that fanciful, because i can't imagine we have enough democrats to get rid of it at this point. it seems to m

can the media handle the irs scandal? >> he's here. the new prince dominates the coverage and headlines around the world. yet the networks here at home are mum on the widening irs scandal. all business purchases. so you can capture your receipts, and manage them online with jot, the latest app from ink. so you can spend less time doing paperwork. and more time doing paperwork. ink from cha. so you can. i guess. did you download that book i sent? yah, nice rainbow highlighter. you've got finch for math right? uh-uh. english? her. splanker, pretend we're not related. oh trust me, you don't want any of that. you got my map? yeah. where you can sit can define your enti year. and what's the most important thing to remember? no face to face contact until we're off of school property. you got this. sharing what you've learned. that's powerful. verizon. get the samsung galaxy stratosphere ii for free. >>> do you think the irs scandal is a phony scandal? >> what we have seen is inappropriate activity the president came out and force reply said

he found it outrageous that the irs must be held accountable. and irs workers are saying this a task force in washington d.c. basically oversaw the political targeting. the head of the irs ting to silence the opposition and didn't like the way the country was run. >> rick, usually when you hear politicians saying it is phoney and fake, usually that means we have hit on something, no? >> only when it is democrats. >> yeah, look. the president is t suddenly saying that the irs targeting of conservaves di't happen. as liz said he acknowledged it. but he is drawing a ne to the white house exhibited by the daily caller when they pretended that the irs attorney went to a meeting, which he did in the white house two days before. >> what was the pretense. he was there and we have a picture. >> take a look at that picture. you will see him with three other agency people and at meeting with thepresident. they come from all different agencies. >> the fct is, this guy william wiowa lkens is a political appoint ee. d he tock the tea party cases away. you are

for the irs than the taxpayers.hey are members of a community where they are forced to relate to tax payers, given the economic conditions they are experiencing in their community. our employees are being centralized in large sites around the country. they have no idea what is going on in the rest of the country. a think that shows up in the way we deal with taxpayers on the phone. taxpayerstanding of -- the numbers show that the irs has had significant attrition. our staff has been reduced significantly. even as our workload -- you can have reductions in staff due to efficiency and productivity. our workload has grown enormously. the reason i make this point, and it may sound like something strange who is a tax payer advocate, but a point about this is if the irs has less resources to serve taxpayers, what is going to do is turn to more automation, less being available on the phone, court taxpayer service, and that is going to harm taxpayers. be anyone out there to pick up their phone. that is a bad thing and that

the irs to get the health care records because we know how the irs can be when it's weaponized, we've seen it now firsthand. >>> coming up, why did the military build a $34 million facility in afghanistan and had no plans to use it? and a shocking loophole in the immigration bill that puts business owners that have been obeying the law at a real disadvantage. don't mi we're cracking down on medicare fraud. the healthcare law gives us powerful tools to fight it... to investigate it... ...prosecute it... and stop criminals. our senior medicare patrol volunteers... are teaching seniors across the country... ...to stop, spot, and report fraud. you can help. guard your medicare card. don't give out your card number over the phone. call to report any suspected fraud. we're cracking down on medicare fraud. let's make medicare stronger for all of us. >>> accord to a report from the washington post, this year the united states military completed a state of the art 64,000 square feet headquarters building in southwest afghanistan. oh, it cost our defense department $34 million. there is only on

straight ahead, it's not just the irs.nt obama also choosing republicans of drumming up a phony scandal about obama care. we're going hear from a business owner, what he has to say about that, next. ing out the jetta. 34 hwy mpg. check. no-charge scheduled maintenance. check. and here's the kicker... 0% apr for 60 months. and who got it? this guy. and who got it? this guy. and who got it? this guy. that's right... [ male announcer ] it's the car you won't stop talking about. ever. hurry in to the volkswagen best. thing. ever. event. and get 0% apr for 60 months, now until july 31st. that's the power of german engineering. i guess. did you download that book i sent? >> we're not related. oh trust me, you don't want any of that. you got my map? yeah. where you can sit can define your enti year. and what's the most important thing to remember? no face to face contact until we're off of school property. you got this. sharing what you've learned. that's powerful. verizon. get the samsung galaxy stratosphere ii for free. >>> des

the issue by groups that were unfairly treated by the irs, they have gotten letters from the irs, wellwill give your tax exempt status but you will have to live under different rules. i talked to lot of heads of tea party organizations, this is blatantly unfair. why are we being held to a stricter standard than liberal groups. that is what the heart of the scandal is all about. >> paul: what about the argument go that we are hearing from some democrats, liberal groups were also treated just like the tea party groups, were also singled out. does that have any factual basis? >> no, we haven't seen any factual basis yet. what you are hearing are claims that progressives were targeted equally. we haven't seen any of that. the harassment, none of that is copping out. russell george has said of the 2793 groups that were gleaned for additional political activity, there were six that had the word progressive in them. they are going to look into it. his office is going to look into that further. >> paul: russell george being the inspector general. >> july 29, investigators on the hill are expec

straight ahead, it's not just the irs.lso choosing republicans of drumming up a phony scandal about obama care. we're going hear from a business owner, what he has to say about you know throughout history, folks have suffered from frequent heartburn. but getting heartburn and then treating day after day is a thing of the past. block the acid with prilosec otc, and don't get heartburn in the first place. [ male announcer ] one pill each morning. 24 hour zero heartburn. [ male announcer ] one pill each morning. could save you fifteen percent or more on car insurance. yep, everybody knows that. well, did you know some owls aren't that wise? don't forget i'm having brunch with meghan tomorrow. who? meghan, my coworker. who? seriously? you've met her like three times. who? (sighs) geico. fifteen minutes could save you...well, you know. >>> despite the plitly motivated misinformation campaign, the states committed themselves are finding the competition and choice are pushing costs down. >> it's not just phony scandals the presid

in this case the irs was actually used not to like rim ard nixon but the irs was used against broad sectionsy. that is what makes it potentially most dangerous scandal in u.s. history. when the idea we got new revelations from the media research center, the major networks spent one and a half minutes on that when it's going to the doorstep of the president of united states. cbs covered three minutes versus three days of coverage on the royal baby. >> rick: we have the royal baby coming up later. >> we had richard nixon actually involved in a cover-up. >> the articles of impeachment against nixon was suggesting that it happened. >> you ca say that. >> and it not been linked to any of this to obama. next to on news watch a test of freedom of the press. >> former congressman anthony weiner who resigned in shame after a sexting scandal is now in the middle of a new one. and front page news. plus, britain's prince george is the focus of a media tour de force bringing every little detail. has the media gone royally mad? answer is next on news watch. ♪ ♪ [ male announcer ] if you can't stand the he

the big question question is did the irs coordinate this. with the white house, why was this guy in there 157 times. and the fbi has the power to find that out. so it looks bad. is there anything else you would like to add to that? >> not only looks bad. >> you had not just republicans and conservatives, but democrats as well condemning him. he is the president, the attorney general, and then everybody found out, guess what? they're always going to say that. >> lois lerner lied when she gave her first statement. that's why she is not talking. what i'm wondering, bill, if they are not getting any cooperation because everybody at the irs and maybe some the white house officials i'm not going to testify if you want to prosecute me, try. and didn't realize how far it went. >> bill: the fbi is not going to tell you jordan seq. could you -- sekulow. >> certainly your clients aren't going to take the fifth. remember, in libya it was the same dance. the president said we are going to find out what happened. the fbi was going to be sent in and so far

we as a country in the irs so-called scandal? >> well, the administration has admitted mistakes but no one in the administration has said it was my mistake, bill. you go back to 2012. there was testimony from washington officials, the irs commissioner said washington knows about the targeting and there's no targeting. they know about the process of the irs so then the scandal breaks in may of this year and what happens, washington blames two rogue agents in cincinnati. well, those agents were on capitol hill last week and they said they were directed by people in washington including lois learner who is now on administrative leave as well as the irs chief council who is a political appointee. >> what's that guy's name? >> wilkins. >> so wilkins was appointed by president obama to oversee or report back the liaison role with him. tell me about wilkins. what are the allegations? what did he supposedly know was going on? >> well, both the irs officials in washington, especially lerner were directing them what to do and what to targe

>> what does the irs have to do with benghazi? a preposterous scruggs. >> they want to act like the republican party is bringing up a bunch of b.s. and we're not. >> this story is not on any front page of any newspaper, including the wall street journal and "washington times" conservative newspapers because they know there is no story there. the irs -- the i.g. from the treasury department, russell jordan, looked at this. there were 5,500 e-mails they looked at and found no evidence of any political involvement whatsoever. >> do you not find it odd that this general council for the irs is a guy who raised money for the democrats, defended reverend wright. i go back to this point and i acknowledge we have nothing concrete on this guy. i acknowledge that. i'm saying it's all kind of circumstantial. but this is not the kind of irs commissioner or general council -- >> he's not the commissioner, though. >> the council is even nerdier. >> do you find it odd -- >> the commissioner -- >> the irs commissioner who was in charge at the time

irs.>> secretary lew was evasive when chris wallace grilled him about the potential involvement. >> he was. listen to this exchange between chris wallace and lew on fox news sunday today. >> there are 1600 lawyers in the chief counsel's office and there was no suggestion this went to the one political person in that evidence, there's no evidence of it. there has been no evidence of it. >> have you asked him? >> i am leaving the investigation to the proper people who do investigations. i don't think it is appropriate for me to do the investigation. >> told fox news earlier they plan to call irs chief counsel william wilkins to testify at some unknown date. harris, back to you. >> doug mcelway, thank you so much. doug, we're going to continue the conversation. joining me with more, byron york, chief political correspondent for the washington examiner and fox news contributor. byron, thank you very much. i have been reading what you have to say about this and the accusation that the administr

the irs to get the health care records because we know how the irs can be when it's weaponized, we'vehand. >>> coming up, why did the military build a $34 million facility in afghanistan and had no plans to use it? and a shocking loophole in the immigration bill that puts business owners that have been obeying the law at a real disadvantage. don't mi how mu protein does your dog food have? 18 percent? 20? new purina one true instinct has 30. active dogs crave nutrient-dense food. so we made purina one true instinct. learmore at purinaone.com and this park is the inside of your body. you see t special psyllium fiber in metamucil aually gels to trap and remove some waste. and that gelling also helps to lower some cholesterol. it evetraps some carbs to hp maintain healthy blood sugar levels as part of your diet. now that's one super hard working fiber. ... >>> accord to a report from the washington post, this year the united states military completed a state of the art 64,000 square feet headquarters building in southwest afghanistan. oh, it cost our defense department $34 million. there

this was a ready made kind of scandal in that people dislike the irs. if you have a story about the irs doing something bad, being directed to do something bad by the white house, people aren't going to really like that. it will be less the retraction of it or the saying there's no there there will never penetrate as far as the initial scandal belief. that would be durable even going into the next election. so in that sense they may have scored one here. but i think in terms of our actual concern as american citizens about whether or not the irs is actually doing something that's politically motivated, which we should all care about, even on the left, i do believe there is very little evidence that that seems to be going on. >> i think -- the question is obscured by did obama direct this. nobody thinks actually db maybe darrel issa does, but nobody thinks obama's sitting around like nixon and gone mitchell drinking scotch at 3:00 in the morning, say going get those guys, i hate them! that isn't happening. i myself think i would like a real calm investig

the same irs that doesn't answer the customer service line, the same irs that politicized the -- thiss hypocrisy. the american people hate hypocrisy and especially hate it in the irs. >> this union, jessica, is going to lose its subsidy. they're in the federal employees health basket, which is a very good plan. you get a lot of real choice. but they get heavily subsidized. inside this plan that subsidy is gone. that's the whole issue here. so, therefore, they're going to have to go into the exchanges. i ask you, why shouldn't they have to eat their own cooking? why shouldn't this plan affect everybody, including house members and senate members and irs and whatever? why shouldn't it? >> i'm not going to say that it shouldn't and there's no doubt that obama care is in trouble. the letters from ceos and letters from the union leaders are certainly no good. but what's really worst of all is the fact that the gop is using obama care and repealing obama care as a bargaining chip to avoid fiscal showdown at the end of september. that's really what's wrong? >> what showdown is this. >> with

the irs to get the health care records because we know how the irs can be when it's weaponized, we'veit now firsthand. >>> coming up, why did the military build a $34 million facility in afghanistan and had no plans to use it? and a shocking loophole in the immigration bill that puts business owners that have been obeying the law at a real disadvantage. don't miss this. we'll be right back. opd. if you've got it, you know how hard it can be to breathe and man, you know how that feels. copd includes emphysema and chronic bronchitis. spiriva is a once-daily inhaled copd maintenance treatment that helps open my obstructed airways for a full 24 hours. you know, spiriva helps me breathe easier. spiriva handihaler tiotropium bromide inhalation powder does not replace fast-acting inhalers for sudden symptoms. tell your doctor if you have kidney problems, glaucoma, trouble urinating, or an enlarged prostate. these may worsen with spiriva. discuss all medicines you take, even eye drops. stop taking spiriva and seek immediate medical help if your breathing suddenly worsens, your throat or tongu

office of the irs. not necessarily the white house. >> it has gone to the chief white house -- the chief irs scandal, a political appointee, who did indeed hold a meeting inside the white house. >> i will argue with the daily caller's reporting. you asked him important questions. what they're doing at this daily caller which as you know is a very right wing perspective newspaper. he has an agenda. all he's doing is drawing guilt by association. you asked him pointblank whether he had any evidence whatsoever that these procedures were discussed. he had none whatsoever. the only reason he has this information is because the white house visitor logs are public which the obama administration in an historic commitment to transparency has made public. it's backfiring a little bit politically because right wing reporters have access to those logs. >> hold on a second. we have scott here from townhall.com. you think it's not a fake scandal. make your point. >> it's not a fake scandal. a fake scandal is what the

from the beginning, washington irs officials blaming workers in the cincinnati irs office, people say they were targeted testifying before state lawmakers. justin thomas was one of them, he joins us, nice to see you, sir. >> nice to see you again, greta. >> you have been listening to the targeting business, is this a phony scandal, give us your thoughts on this? >> phony impacts quite a few of us here. i don't know how many thousands of people qualify before we go from phony to real? >> what do you think when you hear the president say this? i mean, the president said, on may 15th, it's serious and he will not tolerate it and it's terrible. and now six or eight weeks later, something that was serious before is now phony? >> yeah. a bit of consistency issue. i can tell you it's not funny to me. my name on the questionnaire is a serious issue and has serious ri risks for me and my family. >> when you talk about your name on a questionnaire, as i understand it, it's a questionnaire given to one particular tea party group, not one that you were a member to. they basically said, what do yo

we, you mentioned irs too, rich. >> right. the irs -- bill: i don't know what the truth is here. i do know number about groups tar guested was like 292-8, conservatives to liberals, rich. >> yeah. overwhelmingly the tea party groups. now the democrats are doing all they can to muddy the waters and shame fully, are attacking the inspector general for having the temerity to bring this to light and write a report bit. i actually think the, darrell issa, the chairman. oversight committee is taking this on in a very deliberate way and steadily working his way up through the irs, from the bottom towards the top and has exploded what was the initial lie about this particular scandal it was centered in the cincinnati office and it was all lowdown bureaucrats no one cared about who were responsible. bill: maybe in the end it fleshes out, maybe it doesn't. alan, i think you would agree there are questions that still remain. regarding targetting of journalists talk to james rosen's parents if you don't think that is scandal. what do you think about that? >> i think there is issues like the

the reason that's important is because the irs chief counsel is one of only two positions in the irst the presidents of the united states appoints. the chief counsel of the united states is one of two political ayointees at the irs. >> bill: and you respond how. >> i would say the woman you just showed liz hofacre it was a cincinnati initial directed this not somebody in washington and also another thing that happened today was that jay russell george, the investigator general said that he was quite disturbed that he was kept -- information kept from him by the irs about the targeting of progressive groups. we heard at the beginning this was just tea party. now we are hearing it was occupy. we are hearing words like israel and progressive were used and we also know that issa did not give full information. >> bill: are you saying that the first witness lied today she was under oath in front of congress. that's a crime. >> i'm not going to say a liar. it's been reported in the past that she said directed from cincinnati. >> bill: i'm going to throw that out what you just said because t

a blow by blow account of how the media completely humiliated themselves on the irs scandal.cked on the link immediately and was thrilled to read the headline, "how the media outrageously blew the irs scandal: a full accounting." and then the subheadline -- "almost everything report bd the big obama scandal was wrong, and no one has been held to account." that's the kind of thing i've been saying for months. i was thrilled. i thought wow, i can't wait to read this because i've said that right here on this program from the start, the washington media has done a terrible job covering the scandal that never was a scandal. in fact, here are my very first words, the first words i said about the irs non-scandal. >> if you've been anywhere near a news source today, you know that tonight the internal revenue service is officially out of control and that all of washington is scandalized by the out-of-control irs. but no one in washington seems to understand that the irs has been out of control on the matter in question since 1959, when republican dwight eisenhower was president. it wa