jim cavanaugh, i want to bring you in.en wanting to talk to you about this all week, first of all about the police tactics that ended in the death that has preceded all of what we've seen, but more urgently right now, i want to discuss the police tactics that we are hearing of and seeing tonight with what they're attempting to do with crowd control? >> well, they really need to tone this down, lawrence, and ratchet it back. this is not the response to a protest. you know, when you shoot all this gas and you have armored vehicles with officers with rifles on top, you're dealing with violence, a riot, the people are hurt, killed, people with weapons charging the police line, there's gunshots. that's the kind of response that has this kind of police activity. i grew up around it in the '60s. we all saw that stuff. but when there's protesters, where do we have all that police activity, rifles on armored vehicles? that's not required. what you do is you pressure the citizens and you tear gas the citizens for protests. that's no

we have jim cavanaugh joining us, who has been with us analyzing the law enforcement aspects of this. jim, i've got to say, this is as quick a turn around as i've ever seen in a situation like this. >> i agree. i think the governor has been getting a lot of criticism, but he did the main thing today which was to make the change to people in charge there that will treat the residents with respect and dignity and the captain brings all those things. his demeanor, look at the way he talked in the press conference and the way he talks to people at the scene. he's a nice guy. he's a leader. he's ranks, he's a captain in the highway patrol. so he's going to bring a different inflection. this is all people are asking for. they need the police to protect them. but they want that kind of leadership, calm, and i think he's going to deliver that tonight. >> it's a great example of the value of police officers actually knowing the community that they are policing. >> exactly. you have to draw your police from the community, and you've talked about it, lawrence, and a lot of people on msnbc about

jim cavanaugh, we'll be back with you with more of this.overage with what's going on in the streets of ferguson. . perfect timing. we're offering our best-ever pricing on mobile plans for business. run the numbers on that. well, unlimited talk and text, and ten gigs of data for the five of you would be... one-seventy-five a month. good calculating kyle. good job kyle. you just made partner. our best-ever pricing on mobile share value plans for business. now with a $100 bill credit for every business line you add. everybody's excited about the back at staples.avings from the customers, to the staples associates. with guaranteed low prices on sharpies. you'll flip out! now go tell your friends. staples, make more happen for less. it can help your business save money. false. the truth is when you compare our fastest internet to the fastest dsl from the phone company, comcast business gives you more for your money. why pay more for less? call today for a low price on speeds up to 150mbps. and find out more about our two-year price guarantee. co

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i'm also joined by jim cavanaugh, an nbc law enforcement analyst. let's all listen to this audio once again. [ gunfire ] [ indiscernible voices ] >> paul ginsburg, you've had some time today to analyze what we all just heard there. what did you find in terms of -- or could you establish the number of shots fired? >> yes. after my analysis, i find that there were six shots initially, then there was a three-second pause, another shot, another second pause, and then three final shots. so there were ten shots in all, and there was a pretty large separation of three seconds after the first six shots. >> jim cavanaugh, what's your reaction to that information? >> well, i think, lawrence, it starts with is this tape authentic and can it be authenticated by the fbi? paul's analysis is good and he's an expert and all the agencies have used him, but first it has to be authenticated by the witness, by the machine it was made on, looked at. so if it is, then it's a significant piece of evidence for the prosecution. >> let's listen to tiffany mitchell's account,

that's -- it's confirmation, lawrence. >> and jim cavanaugh, officer page is in the police department that ferguson immediately handed over their investigation to. and that video has been online since april. nobody thought, until friday, there was anything wrong and the officer involved didn't think there was anything wrong with having that video online until friday. since april. >> it's out rage just, lawrence, really. not only that, not only his comments are outrageous, he's speaking to a group called the oath-keepers which is a group that's involved in crackpot conspiracy theories against the government, they're the group that -- one of the main groups at the bundy ranch, they've gone to towns in the west to try to fight civil authority. they claim constitutional backing by their even, oath-keepers. they're involved in a lot of the crackpot conspiracies and right-wing crazy conspiracy theories. to have this guy, even if he was talking to the rotary club, it would be outrageous. but he's talking to this group. i think the county police really have to take some actions here and do so

but this is not good. >> jim cavanaugh, again, we've never seen anything like it. what would you suggest at this point that the district attorney, how the district attorney should conduct himself through this proceeding, assuming he's going to stay on the case? >> well, what i would say is, you know, the case needs to move expeditiously, not a rush to judgment, not sweeping or changing facts. but it needs to move expeditiously because it is a police shooting and a crisis situation for the community. we never handled big crisis in communities like an everyday case. it seems the time frame is being handled like any other everyday case, but it's not. i was one of the top commanders on the d.c. sniper case. when the sniper shot somebody in the middle of the night, we drove the bullet to the atf laboratory and had the bullet examined right now. we didn't put it in the cue for six or eight weeks, because that's normally the time it would take to do. it was a crisis. we had to react it. we were leaders. i don't think you should make a decision if you don't have probable c

let me go to you, jim cavanaugh, first that i can ask you, as one who has seen a lot and jim cavanaugh for our regular listeners know, but for new viewers is an msnbc law enforcement analyst. jim cavanaugh, tell us what you will feel is the next steps on this case. what will happen in terms of the fbi investigating and in terms of how that works with local authorities. >> right, reverend al. what the fbi will do is parallel or monitor the case as it is conducted by the st. louis county police homicide bureau. i have a lot of faith in that homicide bureau. they're a good force. they will get the facts down on paper to the prosecutor. i think they will do it right. >> the distrust -- and i have been involved in a lot of these cases down through the years. involved in many now as head of national action network. the mistrust of local authorities is basically because a lot of the local prosecutors and local police have to work hand in hand. families wonder whether or not a prosecutor is as aggressive as the outside federal authorities would be. how have you been able to experience hearing

pamela meanes and jim cavanaugh, thanks to both of you. >> thank you so much, joy. >> all right., we reid between the lines on who's really in charge of the operation in ferguson. hey. i'm ted and this is rudy. say "hi" rudy. [ barks ] [ chuckles ] i'd do anything to keep this guy happy and healthy. that's why i'm so excited about these new milk-bone brushing chews. whoa, i'm not the only one. it's a brilliant new way to take care of his teeth. clinically proven as effective as brushing. ok, here you go. have you ever seen a dog brush his own teeth? the twist and nub design cleans all the way down to the gum line, even reaching the back teeth. they taste like a treat, but they clean like a toothbrush. nothing says you care like a milk-bone brushing chew. [ barks ] let's show 'em what a breakfast with whole grain fiber can do. [ barista ] i have two cappuccinos, a medium macchiato, and two espressos -- one with a double shot. that's not the coffee talkin'. [ female announcer ] start your day with kellogg's frosted mini wheats cereal. it's a delicious way to get the nutrition you w

louis american newspaper, and jim cavanaugh, nbc law enforcement analyst. liz brown to you, what is your reaction to you that the shooter in this case did not write an incident report? >> i think it's consistent with everything that we've experienced with this police department. i think it's consistent with the concerns that have been articulated by all of the people that have been marching and protesting and crying out for justice. this is a police department that is out of control. this is a police department that doesn't have respect for the law. and it's a police department that is very comfortable with not telling the truth about what happened. it's hugely problematic. it's almost like something that would have been written for a sitcom, because it's just that unbelievable. >> lisa bloom, in the decades i've been studying these cases, most of them involve incident reports written by the officers involved with the shooting. in recent years, it's become customary for the police union lawyer to run in and prevent the shooter from giving any kind of commen

joining me now is jim cavanaugh. fies commonsense. >> we need to have a change and the gun ranges need to accept the challenge to make a change. the small children do not have the wrist strength and the lower arm strength to be able to control these weapons designed originally for military. >> tell us about a uzi and what kind of recoil, what kind of strength would you need to control the kickback from that weapon when you shoot it? >> andrea, great point. uzi invented the gun. he was a german-born israeli. it was made for military, light infantry, law enforcement security. secret service has used the gun for years. it's easily concealable under their jackets. but because of the nature of the design of the weapon, it doesn't have a long hold for leak a normal rifle or some machine gun. it's very short. it has a pistol grip and, of course, when it's put on full automatic mode, as this submachine gun -- what it is, it's a submachine gun, it's going to move. small children shouldn't be shooting submachine guns. if you're

thank you, jim cavanaugh, thank you jim johnson for joining us. another tragedy.nd we'll be right back after this. differently. brushing alone does less than half the job leaving behind millions of germs. complete the job with listerine®. kill up to 99 percent of germs. and prevent plaque, early gum disease and bad breath. complete the job with listerine®. power to your mouth™. also try listerine® floss. its advanced technology removes more plaque. could help your business didavoid hours of delaynd test caused by slow internet from the phone company? that's enough time to record a memo. idea for sales giveaway. return a call. sign a contract. pick a tie. take a break with mr. duck. practice up for the business trip. fly to florida. win an award. close a deal. hire an intern. and still have time to spare. go to comcastbusiness.com/ checkyourspeed if we can't offer faster speeds - or save you money - we'll give you $150. comcast business. built for business. >>> let me finish tonight with people who speak with forked tongue. you know, the old tv shows, the american

let's bring in jim cavanaugh now to talk about this. officer being named, the law enforcement official there went at length to say that he was in fact injured in this incident. what's it mean now for the local police force in ferguson that this officer's name is out there and how does that change the dynamic of this story? >> well, i think the lesson for police commanders and executives, luke, is if this had been released within 24 hours it probably would have stemmed a lot of the angst in the neighborhood there. so it probably should have been put out earlier. they certainly have the officer located where they believe he's safe and they're working with the prosecutors through the investigation to result in a criminal warrant for him. it's good that it's out there. when you're a policeman, you know that whatever actions you take is going to be public. you never are guaranteed that anything you do is going to be secret. you put on a uniform, you put on a badge, that's the way it goes. nobody should be surprised by that. but again, the of

jamelle bouie and jim cavanaugh, thank you for your time. these are live shots of protesters now that marched to the scene where this young man was killed. they are live. you see the protesters peacefully at the scene where this young man was, michael brown was shot and killed by a policeman five days ago. we'll be right back. ee everyone in america almost every day, you notice a few things. like the fact that you're pretty attached to these. ok, really attached. and that's alright. because we'll text you when your package is on the way. we're even expanding sunday package delivery. yes, sunday. at the u.s. postal service, our priority is...was... and always will be...you. when your favorite food starts a fight fight back fast with tums. relief that neutralizes acid on contact... ...and goes to work in seconds. ♪ tum, tum tum tum tums! try great tasting tums chewy delights. yummy. [ woman ] if you have moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis like me, and you're talking to your rheumatologist about a biologic... this is humira. this is humira

joining me now is law enforcement analyst jim cavanaugh. former atf special agent and liz brown, attorney and columnist for the st. louis americans. jim, let me start with you. this has been a wake-up moment for a lot of americans, myself included. we realize the scope of the equipment and the raw force at the hands of police forces all across the country, even in places like this. this is a town of 20,000, 25,000 people. it raise it is question when you look at the equipment we were talking about. you look at the equipment being used in ferguson. how much of this stuff do police force miss this country actually need? >> they need less. they could use more negotiators equipment. you can go to almost any police department and talk to the negotiators. they will tell you they can't get the money for rescue phones which is a sophisticated phone we use to deal in barricades or hos taj situations. the money doesn't go to the softer side, the brainy side. it goes to the vehicles and a lot of the heavy equipment. it's not needed. the police don't n

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jim cavanaugh, our law enforcement analyst is with us. i don't think we have spoken to you since we got word of the independent autopsy. >> right. it's interesting. certainly is the way the report out lines the shots in the front and the shot to the eye an the head, no tattooing or gunshot residue indicates shots from handgun would be more than three feet away. once you get inside of three feet you get gunshot residue from the smokeless power in the cartridge that gets on your clothes. the closer you get the more you get. if the gun is up close to the body you get blackening of the skin, gunshot residue in the clothes. these shots are from approximately three feet. you can't tell how close three feet back to 20 feet. no way to tell that distance. it seems consistent with what the witnesses said. the witnesses said that everybody agrows an the police chief and county said this you a shot fired from inside the car. dorian, michael's friend said that michael was shot. he saw blood on his right side right there in the first shot. he was hit t

joining me now is retired atf agent in charge jim cavanaugh.d do you think it should be extended? >> well, it seems like it helped and i noticed the governor said at the press conference that they will make a decision each day based on awareness on whether they will use more or less force. i think that's appropriate but we've seen a pretty uncoordinated command out there, dualing press conferences between the chief and highway patrol and no commander as the investigative phase. the attorney general's announcement of an autopsy is a positive step. you know, in the federal service we use the the arm services of pathology for our autopsies in atf, fcbi has used them. i think they go to them in bethesda because they clearly can do a good job on them. that's not to say the attorney general won't do a great job as well because they have great medical examiners but in this case, with the distrust of local authorities, i think the attorney general made a good call on that. >> store owners are saying that police have refused to protect the shops that th

jim cavanaugh is a retired atf agent and law enforcement agent and jim, i'll start with you.have been shocked to see what really looks like an army on the streets of ferguson, missouri. is that part of the police tactics in dealing with protests? >> i think the tactics are wrong here, and to look on top of the armoured veem. that's not what this is about. it's about disobedience and the majority of people and i just saw john lewis and riot police have a helmet and you can't begrudge a brick or bottle and a shield and we had a 36-inch what is called a very restrained response to a crowd a. protest, civil disobedience. when you have armored vehicles and rifles and all of this heavy tear gas, it's too much for the people and it's not necessary. there's a tweet and a picture of the comment that was i count 70-plus s.w.a.t. officers on crowds insanity. go go goldie, you were in the military. it speaks to a military reaction as to what has happening in a civilian context. >> it's even an overreaction for a military engagement, frankly. these officers were dressed and ready in riot

. >> let me bring in msnbc analyst jim cavanaugh. this is a heartbreaking story. the st. police chief said that an officer encountered two men on the street when one of them pushed him inside his police car. let's listen to this. >> there was at least one fire shot inside the car. after that, the officer came back out of the car, exited his vehicle and there was a shooting that occurred where the officer in fact shot the subject and the subjects, they were fatal injuries. >> okay, jim. this directly counteracts eyewitnesss who say the victim was running away with his hands in the air unarmed trying to run away from police. we have two totally different stories and the timing may be making up the difference here. give me your reaction to this and where the investigation goes from here. >> alex, a lot of times when people see someone fall, they think that is when the person is shot. that's not always the case. sometimes a person is shot and even shot a few times and can turn and run. one of the concerns here is was he shot close to the officer? was the confrontation struggl

also in studio with me, jalani cobb, raul reyes, jim cavanaugh, msnbc.com law enforcement analyst.od to have all of you here with us. i want to also let folks know we have our todd johnson with me as well who's been doing some reporting there for us on the ground. he is the home page editor of the grio.com in ferguson, missouri. goldie, let me start with you. i wasn't able to talk to you personally. after the curfew went into place. what was your reaction? we'll get your reaction to what we saw on the streets last night but just the reaction to the fact that a curfew was put in place yesterday? what was your reabc news to that? >> i think historically i have some moral difficulties with curfews in a country where we are the home of the free and the brave. however, i stand behind those community organizers on the ground who wanted to respect the curfew last evening. but how you see this curfew really depends on how you see the constitutionality of it, how you see the morality of it. that really sort of skews how you see the events unfolding last evening. >> jim cavanaugh, let me bri

thanks also to jim cavanaugh for joining us and for mr. pruitt of the naacp in st. louis. our live coverage of the situation there in missouri will continue now with chris hayes. >>> good evening. let me start tonight with separation anxiety. for the past two nights we covered the obama/clinton political tap dance. first hillary clinton interviewed in the atlantic in which she criticized obama's foreign policy. next, dissect the plate cal maneuvering, is she positioning herself for a 2016 run and separating herself from the president who is currently struggling in the polls. yesterday, the phone call. clinton calls obama to clear the air. a spokesman makes a statement saying it was to make sure nothing she said was meant to attack him. today a press release, a spokesman with this assess of this call and criticism. >> president indeed appreciating president clinton's call as he does every opportunity it chat with former secretary of state. they have a close relationship and the president appreciates counsel and advice but more importantly appreciates her friendship. that's

joining me now are msnbc analyst and retired atf analyst jim cavanaugh and prosecutor and legal analyst paul henderson. thank you for being here. >> thanks for having us, rev. >> thanks, reverend. >> jim, what's your reaction to the lack of detail in these documents? >> i don't understand why there is no narrative in the st. louis county incident report. i think that's pretty lacking, reverend. when an officer is involved in a shooting a lot of times the officer doesn't prepare an incident report because they have been involved in a violent act. they're stressed, uh set, could be wounded, injured. maybe the sergeant will write it. then that officer will be interviewed the next day, usually by homicide or something. i can understand the process. i don't think that's unusual. the offer no doubt, at least i hope he was interviewed by st. louis county homicide bureau detectives within a day. that would be normal. for the county report to be just lack of all narrative not that they had to put if the officer statement. but michael brown was a victim of gunshot wounds, found at this location.

i spoke with nbc news analyst jim cavanaugh about police tactics in ferguson. >> civil disruptions andn't be handled with s.w.a.t. up front. you know, that's quite a bit did i rent when you respond to a looting or arson like last night there was some molotov cocktails. but you saw a more measured response. they brought s.w.a.t. in. it's a tighter group. a lot less tear gas. it's a more measured response. so -- but to bring s.w.a.t. in the other night and all that tear gas that was shot and the protests, it was mostly peaceful protests. so that was handled very poorly. long rifles on the top of armored vehicles pointing at crowds, very, very bad tactic. so there's a place for s.w.a.t. and a lot of the tactical officers are heroes. they face down the most dangerous armed people. police need armor. they need body armor and helmets to protect them from rocks. we can't overreact to this criticism. but they don't need mine resistant vehicles. there's a balance in what the officers need. they do need protection. they do need vehicles and equipment that are going to help them. look, we even ne

joining me now are prosecutor and legal analyst paul henderson and jim cavanaugh, msnbc analyst and retiredank you both for joining me. >> thanks for having us. >> thanks, reverend al. >> paul, how critical is the autopsy being released today? >> well, the autopsy that's here today is helpful but not conclusive. obviously any prosecutor are wants all of the evidence from the full investigation. but what's important to note from this autopsy is that it corroborates the narrative and doesn't rule out the stories that have been heard on this show. that's important. that's what people are paying attention to. so it's actually helpful. >> jim, how striking do you find the new autopsy report? do you find it in line with the witness's accounts as paul just said? >> reverend al, in every regard when you go through the witnesses step by step and you look at dr. baden analysis. i have met dr. bade n and been around him. i have been at his homicide seminars. i know him. you know, it's very good. consistent with the three witnesses you just showed. there is nothing really inconsistent. one of the shots

jim cavanaugh, i believe on the line. expertise in this matter, as a law enforcement official. jim, you have been watching a lot of this unfold. when you are seeing these police tactics like the ones on the screen right now. like that line of police officers with long guns that we just saw a moment ago. pointing the long guns at protesters at a short-range. what do you understand about the tactics and what police are trying to accomplish? >> rachel. you described it accurately. a little while ago. you talked about the one line. the moving riot officers there. they had shot guns designated for bean bag round. painted pink. yellow, orange. basically a shotgun. fires a canvas bag full of like beans. it is like getting hit with a baseball. and the shot you see there. i believe that fell through the shot. the chief of the st. louis metropolitan police. they have their commanders out there as well. but, yes, you are seeing tactical officers make movements on the side. looks like they may be responding to some reports of, you know, a fire or -- or gunshot. or something. that is the s.w

jim cavanaugh, i believe on the line. expertise in this matter, as a law enforcement official. jim, you have been watching a lot of this unfold. when you are seeing these police tactics like the ones on the screen right now. like that line of police officers with long guns that we just saw a moment ago. pointing the long guns at protesters at a short-range. what do you understand about the tactics and what police are trying to accomplish? >> rachel. you described it accurately. a little while ago. you talked about the one line. the moving riot officers there. they had shot guns designated for bean bag round. painted pink. yellow, orange. basically a shotgun. fires a canvas bag full of like beans. it is like getting hit with a baseball. and the shot you see there. i believe that fell through the shot. the chief of the st. louis metropolitan police. they have their commanders out there as well. but, yes, you are seeing tactical officers make movements on the side. looks like they may be responding to some reports of, you know, a fire or -- or gunshot. or something. that is the s.w

jim cavanaugh, i believe on the line. expertise in this matter, as a law enforcement official. jim, you have been watching a lot of this unfold. when you are seeing these police tactics like the ones on the screen right now. like that line of police officers with long guns that we just saw a moment ago. pointing the long guns at protesters at a short-range. what do you understand about the tactics and what police are trying to accomplish? >> rachel. you described it accurately. a little while ago. you talked about the one line. the moving riot officers there. they had shot guns designated for bean bag round. painted pink. yellow, basically a shotgun. fires a canvas bag full of like beans. it is like getting hit with a baseball. and the shot you see there. i believe that fell through the shot. the chief of the st. louis metropolitan police. they have their commanders out there as well. but, yes, you are seeing tactical officers make movements on the side. looks like they may be responding to some reports of, you know, a fire or -- or gunshot. or something. that is the s.w.a.t. ta

worry about the types of things we've seen happen in ferguson if the police come -- >> we had jim cavanaughw enforcement analyst on the show yesterday basically saying, look, you have -- it's not been publicly reported, but you have witness whose have spoken publicly about what they saw, eyewitnesss to this shooting about what they saw. based on that, in his perspective, there should be enough right now to bring the officer in. it's not a conviction. >> the police tend to circle the wagons. and this us versus them attitude permeates everything here. i don't know what the procedure is. i don't know whether it's a full-blown arrest or whatever. they need to start the wheels of justice grinding. and then i think they have to think in broader terms. whatever the version in ferguson would be of the truth and reconciliation commissions that we've seen in south africa and other -- there has to be a broader process here for the community to be heard and for genuine grievances to be corrected. but they have to get the -- they have to honor justice in handling this police officer for him -- >> that w

joining me is retired atf special agent james cavanaugh, jim, i want to start with the confusion yesterday that resulted from the police giving -- releasing this video in the morning and the clear implication when they released that video was that there's some connection here and then the police chief comes out and says, no, there's no connection. the officer stopped him essentially for jaywalking and after that press conference the police chief seems to clarify again and seems to say, actual hill, the officer stopped him and saw cigars in his hand and then made the connection. based on what we've seen, based on the story the police have told now, i guess it raises the single question would the tape even be admissible in court? >> probably not. it matters not what michael -- i'm sorry, michael brown did at the convenience store. it doesn't matter if he'd just been anointed a soint aint or ba rised every home in the city it matters not because the conversation with the officer stands on the facts right there whether the shooting is justified or unjustified. and from one of the witness's sta