good to see you. >> the president today called john dean a rat. in 1973, what did nixon supporters do in response? how was he treated at the time? >> well, when he testified before the senate, as you were just showing and said that nixon was central to the coverup, a lot of nixon people were very angry. but what amazes me, rachel, is that if we were to talk to any president from gerald ford all the way through barack obama and say what do you think of john dean? they would have said a flawed person but ultimately a hero of watergate because he helped to expose richard nixon. this is another sign of this weird time we're living through that the current president, donald trump, was use a word like rat. >> one of the things we're watching unspool now in this story is that nobody is quite sure whether or not don mcgahn acted heroically or whether he had to talk to the special counsel. did john dean at white house counsel have a choice in terms of whether he was going to cop wop rate? he worried he was going to get blamed and this was his effort to get

john dean is a rat for nixon? does that mean the president thinks that everybody who works in that white house should be loyal to him above everybody else and lie for him if they need to, protect him at any cost, be their roy cohn. >> i think it's pretty obvious the answer to that is yes. the extent to which he has compelled the member of his staff to subodor nate their morals and better judgment to whatever the narrative is donald trump wants to see on television i think is pretty obvious. i'm not sure i would call it orwellian because in orwell's universe they had some complexity and depth to them. truth isn't truth is kind of shallow. don't believe your eyes and ears is getting the subtext right in front. but there's some truth to that. he is communicating to a very small base of supporters and the people who are diehard loyal followers. you don't know how big that base is going to be. the more you ask him to internalize these contradictions, the slimmer an slimmer it is. >> how small is it? right now it's arou

for them, john dean is a villain. president trump, who was friends with roy cohen, is channelling that kind of hatred of john dean. why did they hate him? let's talk about why they hate john dean. in march of '73, john dean goes to the president n. -- in a famous conversation called the cancer on the presidenty he leys out the cover up. he lays this out and he says mr. president, we have a problem. we are paying hush money. we are being blackmailed by these watergate burglars. and he tells this to the president so the president can stop it and say, we're not going this. but instead, the president says, well, how much money is it going to cost to keep it going? john dean comes out of this conversation, and then over the next couple of days begins to think that oh, you know what they are going to hang me out to dry. this president knows about the cover-up. he's in the middle of it. and auto i'm the next to go. he goes to a -- he gets a criminal defense attorney and then he goes to the prosecutors. this is in late march

type. >> reporter: i have nothing to hide the president referring to nixon white house counsel john dean credited with breaking the whesle and ultimately leading to his undoing. that's how the president responded to the new york blockbuster this weekend, don mcghan has been cooperating for months, participating in at least three voluntary interviews over a remarkable 30 hours. it's jaw developing news, a huge development in the probe, examining whether the president, himself, obstructed justice or might have done other this engs that exceeded his powers. mcgahn, the president tut put i. he is driving trump's successful efforts to fill the courts with conservative judges. >> that, includes, okay, supreme court nominee brett kavanaugh mcgahn escorted to capitol hill today. though reporters were interested in a different topic. >> why did you take so long to the special counsel, mr. mcgahn. >> were you afraid the president would betray you? >> do you regret that decision? >> will you continue to comploo i? >> have you briefed the white house on everything you told the special counsel? >> mc

did dough what john dean did to nixon and eventually took to protect himself? dean felt he had to tell everything. and mcgahn thought he was being set up possibly by the president and by his team and so he said i'm going to go talk to them. i don't think anybody at the white house had any expectation there would be 30 hours of conversation and potentially more to come. >> given your depth of experience and again the richard nixon situation, having been there and lived through that. because this president and his legal team have allowed people like mcgahn to testify so openly without setting limits, i saw in the "new york times" reporting the white water lawyer, a white water lawyer said, you know, they would have killed for that opportunity in the clinton situation. >> sure. >> i mean this is somewhat unusual to say the least. do you think it indicates the president could be exonerated when this is all over? >> well, i think this. the president thinks that he's not guilty. that he didn't neither collude or obstructed. but his lawyers, you know, have not wanted h

call it what it is, michael cohen is no john dean.ed about trying to prevent a cancer from growing on a presidency. michael cohen was trying to sell access to the president. let's be very clear who he was and frankly has a long history of shady business deals and in a different position where john dean was. john dean, although representing the president and our legal standards were different on what that meant back then as it is today, he was primarily the president's lawyer as president. michael cohen was really a business partner and also a fixer for the president, not really so much a lawyer. i think what that means for donald trump is an a lot of trouble, because michael cohen has a lot of information he can share, should he decide to enter a plea deal. i think many of us looking at this from the outside looking in would say, why wowuldn't he? >> he has hinted at that, looking at cooperating. from the "new york times," a cooperation agreement would likely include that mr. cohen would provide information to the special counsel. not

think john dean got it wrong. i think in this instance what we need to understand is the white house sanctioned this. mcgahn was interviewed. he talked about the things that he talked about. they did that with an understanding that they were going to talk to the special counsel, the executive privilege exists in this context but for purposes of speaking to an executive agency that is permitted. remember here the executive privilege piece, the d.o.j. is an executive agency. to the extent this information or gathering from the executive branch generally and from the white house goes before a grand jury, they have to ask the white house about that before that happens. same thing if they turned it over to congress. this is really a non-story in my view. >> we do know the president and his lawyers, they keep pointing out that he wanted mcgahn to cooperate. randy, do you think it is a sign the president has nothing to hide? >> first of all, there is an old saying in the business. i would respectfully submit that since m

this is a memorandum written on this date in 1971 by a man named john dean, when john dean was working as white house counsel to president richard nixon. the job don mcgahn has right now for donald trump john dean had that job for richard knox on. in that capacity, he wrote this confidential memorandum. quote, this memorandum address the matter how we can maximize the fact of our incumbency dealing with persons known to be active in their opposition to our administration. stated a bit more bluntly, how can we use the available federal machinery to screw our political enemies. that is not me giving you a snark can i -- snarky modern paraphrase that appears more elegantly in this 47 year document. that's literally what john dean wrote in this white house memo. how can we use the available machinery to screw our political enemies. then, he has a proposal. after reviewing this matter with a number of persons possessed of expertise in this field -- really -- i have concluded we do not need an elaborate mechanism or game plan, rather, we need a good project coordinator and full support for t

let's not lionize john dean, okay? john dean coordinated the coverup.dean authorized the paying of the folks to keep them quiet. then when john dean was about to get caught, all of a sudden he held someone to account. the opposite is what jason said about don mcgahn. don mcgahn was saying from the beginning, you want to fire mueller i won't participate and i'm out of here. don mcgahn was give -- giving the right advice and saying the right things to the president from the beginning. let's not put john dean and don mcgahn -- other than the president putting it in a tweet but let's not us -- there's a difference, matt. he puts it in a tweet the way he characterizes what dean was. but let's remember what dean was. don mcgahn is not john dean not only because of what the president put in his tweet but because don mcgahn was giving honest advice from the beginning unlike john dean who was helping nixon coordinate the coverup. >> the basis of that tweet, the president sees himself as i'm richard nixon and the president sees don mcgahn as he didn't become john

john dean turned on nixon. i think the fear in trump's mind is that don mcgahn might turn on him so it's really the best historical parallel and that's why it keeps coming up again and again and again. >> and guys to be fair to president trump there is no evidence of the find of wrongdoing and conspiracy that the nixon white house was engaged in. those nixon tapes are damning what they were up to, using the tools of the government to go after their political enemies. in a way that, yes, the president has views on twitter that breaks norms but there's no evidence of wrongdoing. >> we've heard plenty of trump tapes but none have been as incriminating against the nixon tapes. >> there's a big difference between the omarosa tapes and nixon's tapes. we'll stipulate that. josh green, i have been quoting you all morning -- >> oh, boy. >> with praise. you noted when president trump says he could take over the mueller investigation, you think this is about control, trying to show he has control. trying to show in light

and we also know that the president all of a sudden making a comparison to john dean, john dean the whiteouse counsel under richard nixon who eventually testified against him. chris, this is from the president. the failing "the new york times" wrote a fake piece today implying that because white house counsel don mcgahn was giving hours of testimony to the special counsel he must be a john dean-type rat. but i allowed him and all others to testify. i didn't have to. i have nothing to hide. what does it say to you making a comparison to john dean? >> it reminds me of when there was some chatter after an abc interview with michael cohen earlier this summer where michael cohen -- one-time personal attorney said like the loyalty to country and family. this is the guy who said he would take a bullet for donald trump. donald trump came out with a tweet the next day that said michael cohen won't flip. he's too trustworthy. i do think there's an element of that at work here which is, don mcgahn's no john dean rat. he's a good guy. don mcgahn, are you listening? there's no aol gags in the "the new

john dean was just starting his testimony. the republican party chairman was still telling everybody he was absolutely convinced that nixon had no personal involvement in the crime or the cover-up, which he absolutely did. there's that level of uncertainty today, as well about how much the president is going to be personally implicated in the scandals that continue to surround him. today "the new york times" broke out another story about this. it started ensnaring his campaign aides and his business associates, including those now flipping against him, a la john dean. the president's personal lawyer, michael cohen, pled guilty last week to eight felony federal charges and in so doing in court under oath, the president's personal lawyer implicated the president with two of the felonies to which mr. cohen pled guilty both of which were campaign finance charges. both involved a tabloid immediate company and its flagship publication, "national enquirer." "times" reports that cohen and trump also made an effort to buy up all of the

a la john dean. the president's personal lawyer, michael cohen, pled guilty last week to eight felony federal charges and in so doing in court under oath, the president's personal lawyer implicated himself in of the two felonies to which mr. cohen pled guilty. both of those involved a tabloid company called american media and its flagship publication, "national enquirer." today the president writes, "times" reports that cohen and trump also made an effort to buy up all of the dirt and information that the "national enquirer" and its parent company had stockpiled on donald trump as a public figure dating all the way back to the 1980s. you might remember last week the associated press reported the american media kept a physical safe, a vault in which everybody knew they safeguarded all their information about celebrities and public figures that they had obtained but not yet publish, including information about donald trump. well, today's revelation from "the new york times" is essentially that the pres

white house counsel don mcgahn was giving hours of testimony to special counsel, he must be a john dean-type rat. rat in all caps. but i allowed him and all others to testify. i didn't have to. i have nothing to hide. so, john, the president of the united states is calling you a rat. you're a guy -- by the way on the same day his wife is saying you shouldn't be a bully on social media -- you're the guy who told the truth about the tapes and, you know, inthey ever come out. what does that say about the president's frame of mind? >> well, it's more like a mob boss talking than a president of the united states. and that seems to be where his head is and the way he thinks and the kind of loyalty he demands is not typically what a president demands but what a mob boss dmtsds. me complains about the handling of the russia investigation. >> sources are telling cnn, john, the president is unnerved by the special counsel and he didn't realize the full extent of their talks. he should be, shouldn't he? >> he should be. and that was one of my tweets back to him. and the reason he should be concerned ev

john dean was involved in illegal activity. john dean was involved in paying hush money. so john dean to not wanting to be a fall guy, he wanted to protect himself. he pled guilty and went to prison. there is no comparison. dan mcghan is not being a fall guy, he's telling the truth. arthel: is there a possibility mcghan is covering his own trail? >> none of us know but don mcghan and his lawyer and special counsel what he said. i think everybody wants to cover themselves. but that doesn't mean there was anything to cover. and that does not mean there was anything which incriminates the president which is really what this is all about. arthel: what is it the president could have asked don mcghan. is there anything he could have said that perhaps could have harmed the president in any way or not? >> it could have. but that shouldn't be what we should look at. i am sure he asked about the circumstances surrounding the firing of mr. comey and the circumstances surrounding the president's tweets involving the northern general. but it's one thing which the "new york times" arti

i don't think it's fair to jump to conclusions he is testifying against him and he is john dean, i don't see it that way. >> how does he get around attorney/client privileges? >> great question. the counsel, if you were called in for an interview, he could turn around and say, attorney/client privilege on the discussions with the president and serving executive privilege, the parameters, which are the president in his capacity. if you listen to mayor giuliani and others, apparently, early on, the strategy was to cooperate, fully, which is actually a positive, again. taking the politics and staying out of it. therefore, to answer your question, dara, they waived the privilege and were able to discuss conversations back and forth. >> he laid out how mr. trump tried to secure control of the investigation giving a mix of information damaging and favorable to the president. what do you make of that? is that enough for a case for obstruction? >> good point. prosecutors love, and ifsz a prosecutor for nine years, if you can get context and flavor, it's very, very helpful. it's not necessarily c

the president was also thinking about john dean and the watergate era. one of the half dozen tweets so far this morning referenced dean, where he says, he's hitting the paper for this article today, then saying the white house counsel, don mcgahn, was giving hours of testimony to the special counsel. he must be a john dean type rat. i allowed him and others to testify. again, we have said that the president did use his ability to say, yes, they can testify. he could have asserted executive privilege but did not do so. an attorney for don mcgahn, who participated with him through this process, tells me that because the president did not exert any privilege, mcgahn did cooperate truthfully, honestly, fulsomely is a word he used, which suggests it was, in fact, a broad and thorough cooperation with the special counsel, and pointed out that you have to do that honestly. that's what he says mcgahn did. alex? >> looks like the president spent the better part of an hour and a half putting these tweets out this morning. thank you for covering them for us, kelly o

white house counsel done mcgahn was giving hours of testimony to a special counsel, he must be a john dean type rat. rat in all taps. but i allowed him and all others to testify. i didn't have to. i have nothing to hide. so, john, the president of the united states is calling you a rat. you're the guy -- by the way, on the same day his wife was saying you shouldn't be a bully on social media, on the internet. you're the guy who told the truth about the tapes, you know, if they ever come out. what does that say about the president's frame of mind? >> well, it's more like a mob boss talking than a president of the united states. and that seems to be where his head is and the way he thinks and the kind of loyalty he demands is not what a president typically demands but what a mob boss demands. he's complained about the way he's being handled with the russian investigation. well, i think the investigator has figured out, they may be dealing with a mobster type president. >> yeah. you know, sources are telling cnn, john, the president is unnerved by mcgahn's 30 hours with the special counsel an

don mcgahn is a john dean, entered as a john dean, and hoping to become a lloyd cutler by strategically leaking along the way. the question we're going to discover is which of those identities is the more true to what really happened. >> it's fascinating when you put it like that. i think you're in agreement with rachel maddow's analysis as well. let's take a listen to that for joyce. >> don mcgahn all of a sudden is the subject of a lot of news stories in terms of him having restrained the president from his worst or potentially most unconstitutional impulses around the russia investigation, and obstruction of justice. makes don mcgahn, like, the picture of heroic self-sacrifice here, right? >> joyce, your take? >> it's interesting to see the president go through lawyers faster than a chain smoker goes through cigarettes. i mean, mcgahn is just leading the steady drum beat of lawyers departing. this one, ari, you're right because there's been so much publicity surrounding it. it's cut both ways. on the one hand there's this effort to cast mcgahn in a good light, the person who's gone a

and thank heavens for john dean and the tapes. >> john dean has actually tweeted a response to the president tweeting, i still have trouble using the title mr. president for someone installed by putin. i doubt you have any idea what mcgahn has told mueller. also nixon knew i was meet with prosecutors because i told him. however, he didn't think i would tell them the truth, which is a point you were alluding to, jill. let me just say something else about rudy giuliani because here he is claiming that this was, well, he's acknowledged that they don't really know. they're talking it from john dowd, the previous personal attorney, what he may or may not have told bob mueller. but if you were just doing the document presentation, presenting documents describing perhaps the narrative of, you know, the chronology, if you will, would that have taken 30 hours, or does 30 hours suggest that he's talking more than he would have to under a very literal interpretation, or is it hard to say? >> the special counsel's office is being very thorough. we know there's a lot to cover here and again, i think that

john dean on the person you have been talking a lot to, lanny davis, michael cohen's attorney. he has been reaching out to you, you two have been speaking just a few days ago recently. here is his message to mueller. listen. >> i can tell you it is my observation that what he knows, that he witnessed will be of interest to the special counsel. >> it may be of interest, john dean, but the issue of credibility is one. do you think mueller would consider cohen a credible enough witness now. and on the flip side, there is no question, there's no formal plea unsealed in terms of a deal here, does mueller even need cohen? >> well, we don't know the answer to that. first of all, is he credible? i think a person who is telling the truth ultimately shines through that that is truth telling. it is hard to mess up a witness that's staying on the straight and narrow, telling it the way it was. so that's the first thing. secondly, whether mueller needs him or not, it is not clear. he was not deeply involved apparently in some phases of the russian operation that they initially thought. he c

against two men and three men and probably four men. >> that was former nixon white house counsel john deanin 1973 after initially participating in the watergate scandal, the cooperation of investigators ultimately helped to expose it. four decades later, the man that has the former dean job white house counsel don mcgahn cooperated and in a report he said he was determined to avoid the fate of john dean who pleaded guilty. and the watergate scandal. to this, president trump took to twitter denied that mcgahn was a john dean-type of rat. your reaction to president trump insisting that mcgahn was not a rat like you were. >> i'm not surprised. he thrives on insulting people. this was typical trump. he also evidences he doesn't really understand what happened back then. >> how do you see your role? i mean, obviously you don't see yourself as a rat. >> well, what i did -- i tried to internally end the cover-up as the tapes would later show. and when i failed at that, i advised the president that i was going to hire a lawyer and i was going to go see the prosecutors and stop the cover-up. so the

john dean is going to join us on the phone. and john, your reak snoun the -- reaction no the noshg t"the new" report and the president's tweet. >> all caps on the "rat", too. >> and what was going on? >> i did respond that i don't believe that trump has anything going on. we know that he is someone who does not really reveal the full factual problems with the attorneys. they have to sort of find it out the hard way. so i suspect that, and there was no indication in any of the reporting that mcgahn was briefed or debriefed before he went in or came out. so they don't really know what he told the special counsel. i can tell you this, that even if he did not go in with the intent to incriminate the president, and just giving the president or putting everything in a time line for the special counsel is just invaluable information. >> john -- go ahead. >> and i was going to say that 30 hours is more than enough time, and that is just set as the minimum. there may have been more conversation in that 30 hours. >> i am curious if you th

white house counsel don mcgahn was giving hours of testimony to the special counsel, he must be a john dean type rat. but i allowed him and all others to testify. i didn't have to. i have nothing to hide." he continues "and have demanded transparency so that this rigged and disgusting witch hunt can close. so many lives have been ruined over nothing. mccarthy at his worst. dems have refused to look at the real crimes on the other side.

no one in government called john dean a rat then.ryone in government thought john dean was doing the right thing for the country by telling the truth. not donald trump. donald trump seems to have learned his ethics from his father, who was arrested at a ku klux klan rally and later charged by the federal government with civil rights violations in his real estate business and donald trump apparently is a believer in the morality of the mafia. >> yes, always, godfather. >> that is the scene james comey describes in the white house when the president sat him down alone and asked for his loyalty and when donald trump didn't get james comey's loyalty, he killed james comey's career at the fbi. if you are a very old man from utah, say, somewhere like that and everything you know about new york city comes from gangster movies, you might think every guy in new york is like the godfather. orrin hatch is 84 years old. he has spent the last 42 of his life representing utah in the united states senate. and so he has led a very shelters life as a

my colleague jonathan swann called john dean after that tweet went out and i'm paraphrasing but deanke i hold the president in such low regard that i'm happy to be on his enemy's list, and if he said something nice i would be worried. so not much warm feeling back and forth between the two of them. >> yeah. do you think that we could see trump turning up his rhetoric on twitter against mueller to avoid a sit town ahedowns ahead of th midterms, when you hear what is coming out on twitter and rudy guilliani who is against it. >> yes, guilliani said, we're getting into territory where if anything comes out it will be viewed at meddling in the elections. i'm not sure if that's why he is dialing up his rhetoric. i thufrpg ink we are seeing his anger towards the investigation. it seems we are heading in a direction thai don't know how much higher the rhetoric can get turned up but we haven't hit the limit yet. >> let me ask you quickly, what is your take on the john dean response to the way he said, it is one thing for mcgahn to have told the president or him be aware he is meeting with th

john dean.under nixon who turned on nixon helping to bring him down. >> do not in fact know if a tapes exist. if it does exist and hasn't been tampered with and a a complete transcript. this committee should have the tape. because i believe it will be it would corroborate many of the things the committee asked me to testify about. >> joining me now. michael con way who assisted in drafting the final report for the water gate articles of impeachment. your take on john dean being called a witness? the significance of that is the message behind him. >> it's very important because john dean is an expert on the issues of privilege and the issues of whether the president has to turn over material. or even testify to a grand jury. united states vs. nixon decided that of the he's well aware of it. you heard him in the clip calling for the tapes to be released and they were. that was the smoking gun. judge kavanaugh has two views that are dangerous and legally wrong. and that's one of them. one he believ

we all know what happened with john dean. do you think lanny davis is consulting with john dean. >> he has been very straightforward with it. he wants to know his experiences, wants to know how when john dean decided to go and cooperate with prosecutors in 1973, how did that go, how did it work. there have been multiple conversations. he says he is not asking necessarily for legal advice, but i do think, i am not a lawyer, but i do think by the mere fact of reaching out to somebody that has a similar parallel to michael cohen and high profile case says something that kind of, you kind of are asking for legal advice. >> i am sure he is. the other issue i wanted to discuss, john brennan, former cia director had a security clearance stripped by the president as we all know. he now is suggesting maybe he will go ahead and file a lawsuit or go to court against the decision. the white house is saying bring it on. the president says we'll go after you. >> ordinarily they won't adjudicate decisions, that's for the executive branch. h

able to say i got all this terrible legal advice from don mcgahn. >> that's essentially where the john deanion was his own fear that he was going to be scapegoated. don mcgahn is an interesting figure to me. i remember, i stood and watched a lot of trump's announcement standing next to him in the lobby of trump tower. i was surprised to see him because he was somebody who has been around washington a long time, worked on the federal election commission, you bump into him at cap lounge or wherever we used to go when we were in our 20s. but there he was at the announcement. sometimes people forget he was kind of involved in the campaign at its earliest stages and incarnations and has really been, you know, kind of -- sometimes not necessarily the central player, but oftentimes in the room. >> yeah, and people are -- that's one of the issues with the comey situation was how much does don mcgahn know about what president trump told comey and that kind of thing. but i also think he's someone who's been around d.c., but also was working for president trump when he was candidate trump to a certain

i reached out to my old friend john dean because of what he went through with watergate. some parallels to what michael cohen is experiencing. i certainly didn't want to raise expectations that mr. cohen has anything like the level of deep involvement and detail john dean had to nixon's crimes, but i saw similarities and wanted to learn from what john went through. >> that's amazing. >> that is lanny davis messing with the president's head. >> i'm totally not making this case i'm making. lower tier gaslighting. i want to grab something margaret said. you talked about representing donald trump. one interesting thing here is when was he acting as a lawyer, which might entail some protections, and when was he acting as a fixer? that's something we have to watch closely. right now his argument that he was acting as a lawyer has not held up well in new york. so let's see what comes out. we also know he taped the president. >> this is the $20 million question with the plea deal as well. that's a lot of money to be potentially looking at in terms of financial fraud for his taxi

we'll ask john dean than in a moment. but the point of the president's tweet, was it to dismiss the idea that he considers don mcgahn a rat or tipping a hand that he does? that is the question. perspective now from someone who as a member of the senate judiciary committee has had extensive dealings with don mcgahn. senator chris coons, democrat of delaware. we spoke just moments ago. so senator coons, today the chairman of your committee tweeting you hoped the news of mcgahn's departure wasn't true and urging the president not to let that happen. you also had the majority leader mitch mcconnell call the news sad news for our country. were you surprised to hear them speak out on this when often they choose to stay silent? >> well, i was surprised by the news that don mcgahn, the white house counsel, is about to leave. he has worked tirelessly to advance one of president trump's key objectives, which is to confirm conservative judges. and i did find in working with don mcgahn on judges for delaware that it's possible to hav

i'm confused he's referring to john dean as a rat. john dean is one of the only people that's seen to come out well in the nixon watergate saga. so what is don mcgahn for the president today? >> you're right. the john dean comment from the president feels illuminating. he suggests that someone who stepped forward and did the right thing is a rat. perhaps sending a message to people in his orbit, we have michael cohen talking to john dean as well. don mcgahn is someone who people in the white house have been suspicious of for a time for the reasons you outlined. he has been eying the exits for a while. rumors about his departure persisted for months and months. as kristen said, this a different type of legal strategy at the again with dowd and cobb. they wanted to take the president at face value saying i didn't do anything wrong, let's cooperate, let's get this over with. mcgahn became a spapart of that. dramatic shift by the president. it's attack, attack, attack. in fact, the numbers if you look at the times that donald trump has si

this morning he calls john dean a rat, tells you he is totally worried mcgahn is going to flip on himd john dean, by the way, was the hero of the nixon -- at least the ability to out the watergate problem. >> just a bizarre contradiction. on the one hand he's defending, the president doesn't like to look he's being caught out of control of his white house. on the one hand he's saying no, no, no don mac began is loyal and acting on my orders but at the same time john dean was a rat. just reminding people in case your head was going there. >> of course he knew he was talking -- all this time he knew he was talking. >> did he really have a choice? >> of course he could have stopped it. >> he could have fired him, but don mcgahn's client is the office of the presidency. >> he's saying this is on my orders and according to the reporting don mcgahn is reporting yes i had full knowledge of this. the news is the story has apparently shifted halfway through, so the idea of allowing unfettered access to general counsel at the beginning probably isn't looking so great now. >> that's a legitimate

john dean was a lawyer for richard nixon who spilled the beans on watergate. errol barnett is traveling with the president in new jersey. >> reporter: president trump appeared on the defensive all morning, insisting he allowed white house counsel don mcgahn to be insure viewed by the special counsel because, quote, i have nothing to hide. calling the russia probe disgusting and robert mueller conflicted. >> they're down to desperation time. they have to write a report and they don't have a single bit of evidence. >> reporter: the president's personal lawyer rudy giuliani is still negotiating terms of an interview between the president and special counsel. >> i'm not going to be rushed into having him testify so that he gets trapped into perjury. >> reporter: he fears the president's testimony could be used against him. >> truth isn't truth. donald trump says, i didn't talk about flynn with comey. comey says, you did talk about it. so tell me what the truth is? now, who do you think mueller is going to select? one of his best friends comey or the president? >>

i want to bring back jack, laura, and john dean.ect of rudy giuliani, this is what the president said to fox news about flipping. watch this. >> everything's wonderful and then they get ten years in jail and they flip on whoever the next highest one is. or as high as you can go. it almost ought to be outlawed. it's not fair. it's called flipping. and it almost ought to be illegal. >> what do you think, i mean, should be almost outlawed, almost illegal, do you think there's a reason why he keeps adding that word to it? >> it's breathtaking, that particular comment, among some others. you know, he's talking about the administration of justice. he's talking about prosecuting crimes. getting people to turn in order to provide evidence against a criminal organization is what helps keep all of us safe. >> i've got to ask you this. laura, and jack, you can probably weigh in on this. the president's lawyer, rudy giuliani, made a name for himself in new york getting members of the mob like vincent "fish" to flip, they took down fat tony sole

counsel to the white house, and the man who served as counsel for the former president richard nixon, john dean? you'll remember dean flipped on the former president and even spent time in prison, but is credited for exposing the watergate scandal. do you see similarities here? >> i think it's a stretch to say that don mcgahn is just like john dean. they're very different personalities and people. what's similar here is the situations. and that is in watergate, remember we had an investigation which took place not only a few months, took place over two years. and that investigation gradually as it got closer and closer to the president meant that you had to put aides up on the frontline and hope they would be the sacrifices to stop it. john dean was that sacrifice in '73, it did not work. now if mcgahn to be the sacrifice will it work this time? i doubt it. just as richard nixon in the end only had a couple of loyalists around him, donald trump is not loyal to anybody. anyone is expendable except maybe his own family and i'm not even sure that they're safe at this point. >> scott lucas, wow, wi

the president insists he allowed mcgahn to do so, and says he's no john dean-type rat. and rudy giuliani with a new reason he says president trump should not be interviewed by robert mueller. saying truth isn't truth. here's tara palmeri. >> reporter: tonight, president trump's lead attorney with a new and stunning reason why he's advising the president not to testify in the russia investigation. >> i'm not going to be rushed into having him testify so he gets trapped into perjury. and when you tell me that, you know, he should testify because he's going to tell the truth, and he shouldn't worry, well, that's so silly because it's somebody's version of the truth. not the truth. he didn't have a conversation -- >> truth is truth. i don't mean to go like -- >> no, it isn't truth. truth isn't truth. >> reporter: giuliani later adding more context to the jarring statement, truth isn't truth. >> we have two pieces of evidence. trump says i didn't tell him. and the other guy says that i did say it. which is the truth? >> reporter: the president's lead attorney also doubling d

white house counsel don mcgahn was giving hours of testimony to the special counsel he must be a john dean-type rat, but i allowed him and others to testify. i didn't have to, because i have nothing to hide. ryan nobles is joining us now from brooklyn heights, new jersey, where the president has been for the weekend, but again, he is op on the way to the washington, momentarily, and so, ryan, rudy giuliani says that he has a pretty good feeling about what don mcgahn would have said, but, do they know specifically what he said and what the q&a was like? >> yeah, i mean, that is a big question right now, fred. we know that don mcgahn spent an exes tensive amount of time with the special counsel and more than 30 hours over three different occasions around we know that don mcgahn has been around the president at these key moments of interest of the special counsel and the president and the white house are insistent that it is okay, and they are the oneses who gave him the right and the ability to go to have this conversation with the special counsel, and they also were the ones who told him it

john dean was a lawyer for richard nixon, michael cohen was a personal lawyer for donald trump. he attention of the justice department, dean because of the role he had played in really orchestrating the watergate cover-up, as he subsequently admitted. michael cohen for reasons that aren't completely clear, but we do know the fbi raided his office. the key point is that both these men got legal advice of their own and decided it would be in their own interests to cooperate with the prosecutors. dean, as it turns out, had a lot of critical information about the cover-up and about the president's role in the cover-up, including conversations he had had with the president about that, and that was eventually confirmed by tapes. we don't know exactly what michael cohen has, but there is some reason to believe, actually, that he might have a lot of information about dealings with russia, and apparently his attorney has stated that michael cohen does know that president trump did know about the famous june 9th, 2016 meeting in trump tower in advance, which would be a significant fact. no

. >> areva, i have to ask you, do you see any similarities between mcgahn and john dean? you'll remember that john dean flipped on the former president richard nixon even spending time in prison but, in fact, is credited for exposing the watergate scandal. do you see any similarities there? >> well, that's an interesting question, george. and john dean himself weighed in in an interview where he said that, you know, he thought that there was some similarities and he encouraged mcgahn to be truthful and to participate with the special counsel. what we do know is that there are allegations that mcgahn may be concerned about being blamed for the comey firing and for other acts that the president has taken and that a part of why he went in to talk with the special counsel is so that there would be no mistake about what his role and his involvement has been in some of these critical decisions that we know the special counsel is looking at. so it may be that be don mcgahn has some critical information that could lead to impeachment or some kind of charges being brought by the s

he must be a john dean type rat. but i allowed him and all others to testify because i didn't have to, even though i didn't have to, i have nothing to hide. speaking of dean, he is a central figure. he responded on twitter saying nixon knew he was meeting with prosecutors because i told them. this is how this applies to this current situation. we know the white house doesn't have a full handle. his attorneys have said repeatedly that he has told the truth in every instance. so exactly what he says could play an important role as to how the robert mueller investigation continues further. >> thank you for that report. i talked to john dean last hour about the president's tweet going after him, calling him a rat. and his response, here is what he told me about president trump. >> i did respond in a tweet that i don't think that trump understands what's going on. we know he is somebody who does not really reveal his full factual problems with his attorneys. they have to sort of find it out the hard way. so i suspect ther

ene enemy. >> john dean, amazingly 47 years ago today you wrote a white house memo, the subject line which was dealing with our political enemies included the quote on how to screw them, how are you comparing of what president nixon did and threaten to do then to what you saw from president trump this week? >> well, there are some %-p. i didn't realize it at the time i was instructed to write that memo how deep and angry nixon w was and the revenge he sought. i know it from the tapes today it was worse than i thought. i was trying to throw in their face something that i thought they would find denfensivedefen. that would never happen though in the nixon administration is they did not execute that in the enemy attack where as the trump presidency, we are seeing the execution first and explanation afterwards. >> carl, it has been interesting to watch the reaction and many democrats have criticized the president move here, the republicans largely there has been some exceptions, they have either supported the president's move against brennan or shrugging it off as it is not important. wh

john dean, susan glasser. so john, you're going to recognize this piece of history.74. >> never be petty. always remember others may hate you, but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them. and then you destroy yourself. >> so john, i know you recognize that clip, it's president nixon's words as he resigned the presidency in disgrace. and my friend larry sabato pointed out that, can anyone get this message to the president? >> you know what's interesting in that clip too is i think nixon does get it in that clip. when he -- at one point his body language is very revealing when he literally takes his hand and points to himself. that's always a very striking action for me when i watch that clip. but you know, i don't think trump gets it. and that's a clip that he should see. >> when you're watching all of this, john, what's going through your head? are you saying, my god -- i ask you this question a lot. history is repeating itself, it seems. >> the echoes are frightening, don. we are just -- it's too -- i can't believe it's happening in my lifetime, frankly. i